Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Sue Cox — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:27:09 GMT

yeah i second that Phrin!! We will soon see, you never know they might not be totally one-sided...

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 20:10:16 GMT

My views have changed slightly after watching the clip, and reading the DM article...

Yes, this is going to be a piece of sensationalist journalism by all accounts, but it also appears that there were in fact some things going on which shouldn't have been.

I'll try and reserve judgement until after the show, but 2 trainee auxillary nurses (ie not RCVS enrolled), should not IMHO be carrying out catheter placement unsupervised. Nor should there be any physical abuse of any animal under our care, ever. I refer to the part in the article where the reporter says she saw a nurse hit a patient.

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Maisy — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:29:01 GMT

With the Yogi situation I can appreciate that animals obviously do get wound up just by being in the surgery and some more so when being restrained. However my take on the article was that it was 2 trainees (not SVNs as the writer does state she is aware of the difference I believe): one to restrain and one (with three weeks experience!) to insert the catheter! Yogi would prob still be flighty and not happy being there but if someone with more experience was taking over the catheter placement, it would have reduced his stress instead of someone just 'having a go' instead of knowing what they are doing. A large stressed wiggly dog wouldnt have been my first choice of my first placement of an IV!

When I read the comments earlier on the DM there wasn't as much generalisation of vet practices (bar a few odd comments!) that I'd expect for that newspaper! We'll see waht the comments are like later though.

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Tracy Windler RVN — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:05:21 GMT

Sensationalism. Pure and simple. If this "nurse" has worked there for 9 months, surely she has seen animals get wound up and stressed, not wanting to be held for injections or iv access ( and I'm thinking that it would not be advisable to sedate a dog who requires a laryngeal tie-back?) The "Yogi" situation would not have been any different, had a qualified nurse or Vet been present, or been undertaking the procedure. I understand the owner's distress at seeing their animal go through this. The cruelty there is from Panorama and the undercover reporter exposing them to that. I am sure they would have been distressed had they seen filming of the surgery itself, filming of the dog in a kennel getting distressed etc, because they are not Veterinary staff.

I am, however, concerned about the abuse, but the fact that a number of other nurses complained and he was warned and hopefully monitored, satisfies my concerns. The responsibilities that the "trainees", who, I presume, are not SVNs are given by the supervising vets seems negligent. I hate to comment when I don't know the full picture, but it seems that there might be a shortage of QVN's in this practice, which they make up for in employing unqualified "trainees". This is common-place and demeans our qualification as well as giving the animals unsatisfactory care.

I now have mixed feelings about the programme, it might proove advantageous for our VN cause, but there will still be those " I knew I was being ripped off by those money-grabbing Vets". I REALLY hate that phrase "Oh, I must be in the wrong business if thats how much you charge!"

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Jemima 13 — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:34:38 GMT

Just read the article... also read the paragraph about Medivet in Watford...had to laugh about this after an incident with them and a poor client who came to us for a second opinion after being quoted £1000 for dental work...cat only needed a scale and polish...she was told it needed every tooth in its head out!!

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Anonymous — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 13:24:43 GMT

entrapment comes to mind.

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Sal the 1st — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:48:17 GMT

fair enough thanks for putting me right on that

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Lynn Perry — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:17:29 GMT

I agree, there won't have been anything underhand as that then crosses all sorts of legal boundaries. This no doubt would have started a good year or so ago, probably sparked by some person sending a complaint about how their pet was treated and it escalated. It's a story, and once they had it, Panorama would have sold it to the highest bidder.

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:11:00 GMT

[quote user="Sal (the 1st) Holesworth VN CMH Chyp (M)PNLP"]Also the fact that the undercover journalist is writing in the Daily Mail - does this mean there has been collaboration with BBC and Daily Mail have they cut some deal?[/quote]

No, there won't have been anything underhand here. The press office of either the BBC (most likely) or the production company will have issued a press release about the programme a while ago, and the Daily Mail will have just picked up the press release, and asked to interview the mole.

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Lynn Perry — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 12:05:19 GMT

[quote user="Nick Shackleton DipAVN(Surgical)VN MBVNA"]

[quote user="S-J"]

its not looking good, why dont the media like us?

[/quote]

Because they prefer scandal to nice stories!

[/quote]

Ain't that the truth. Scandal sells better than a happy ending. I'm just a bit worried that this is going to leave a black mark on practises across the board because people get paranoid that all vets are out to abuse their pets.

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Sal the 1st — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:45:36 GMT

Having read and watched -

it would seem BBC is out for maximum coverage - releasing footage at 7.32 am. For anybody who still thinks this isnt a smear campaign and wont affect every single practice - good or bad wake up and smell the coffee.

Just a little side note on the 'Yogi' case - a trainee nurse (not jounalist) is condemned on the commentary for handling the dog around the neck, a second trainee nurse(jounalist) then does exactly the same thing without comment - so what makes the jounalists handling of this dog any better? I note from the medivet comments that this (journalist) trainee had been trained to carry out this procedure (cannulation) and had carried it out satisfactorily on other ocassions - so was this somebody who was purposely 'hashing' it because the camera was rolling? ie was this done for audience figures ie was this an act of cruelty?

This is going to be a sensationalist piece of nastiness that will do nobody any good. I certainly dont think it will help anybody if the clip is anything to go by. Clients are now going to be apprehensive about bringing animals in for treatment which means that they may delay seeking advice or treatment which may increase suffering (which is the 'better' of the two options) The second option is that they dont seek treatment at all.

I wonder if they had any veterinary advisor for this program and if so who it was?

Also the fact that the undercover journalist is writing in the Daily Mail - does this mean there has been collaboration with BBC and Daily Mail have they cut some deal? we already know the standard of editorial by the DM

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Maisy — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:39:01 GMT

I think I'll wait and see what happens on the showing, but if those points turned out to be what actually happened, as a pet owner I wouldn't be holding much faith either!

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

S-J — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:28:50 GMT

it does make you think though, you assume panorama is a truthful programme but if they have sensationalised (sp?) us how are we to belive the other reports they have done

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:20:23 GMT

[quote user="S-J"]

its not looking good, why dont the media like us?

[/quote]

Because they prefer scandal to nice stories!

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

S-J — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:18:26 GMT

its not looking good, why dont the media like us?

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:06:11 GMT

I feel quite confused too Maisy, Not sure this program is going to be any good what so ever

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Emma Cooper — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 10:04:08 GMT

Thanks Nick,

Sorry guys, in my excitement I forgot to actually turn it into a hyperlink...Whoops...

Emma

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Maisy — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:57:31 GMT

[quote user="Jenny Cook SVN"]

Maybe im being picky??.... I am a trainee nurse, just finished my first year of training, and i have learnt to place catheters (although as yet been successful), taken blood, etc etc...
I dont feel that this programme will highlight the fact that we are not all the same and dont tar us all with the same brush...

[/quote]

I read it as journo was doing these tasks with another 'trainee', as she stated that SVNs were allowed to do these tasks under supervision, yet she and presumably the others she referred to were not enrolled students.

I feel quite after reading that.

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Jenny Cook RVN — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:56:07 GMT

Just found this link also, which refers back to the irish setter 'yogi' from the other link...

And it answers my question now of was a QVN or vet supervising, answer was no...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8828000/8828881.stm

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:48:34 GMT

Works for me Sal

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1296672/Medivet-undercover-investigation-sick-animals-abused-pet-owners-ripped-trainees-carry-life-death-procedures.html

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Jenny Cook RVN — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:48:21 GMT

A few little things niggled at me when reading that.

She says she had to take blood and administer injections... But as a trainee nurse, your allowed to do those things under guidance / supervision of a qualified nurse or a vet.
So, what she might not be saying is, that a qualified staff was around watching her anyways? Just a thought. Ok i agree that maybe doing I/M inj isnt probably ideal for a trainee to attempt first off rather than say a Subcutaneous inj.

The photos shown just indicate methods of restraint that is used in practice. scruffing arkward / naughty cats (its what the mother would do), restraining wriggly / agressive dogs by means of an arm round the head and neck... (a normal method used say if holding a leg out for venepunture.)

Re: Panorama article by BBC "VN" in Daily Mail

Sal the 1st — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 09:47:10 GMT

have just tried to access and says page has been removed