Spaying

Re: Spaying

Mrs Dot Dot — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:02:17 GMT

[quote user="Claire 'Duke' York RVN MBVNA"]

[quote user="Saskia Paula Quinn"]

Thats certainly food for thought, Fi very interesting reading that

[/quote]

I second that

[/quote]

I third that!

Re: Spaying

Claire Cameron — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 12:58:59 GMT

[quote user="Saskia Paula Quinn"]

Thats certainly food for thought, Fi very interesting reading that

[/quote]

I second that

Re: Spaying

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 12:47:32 GMT

Thats certainly food for thought, Fi very interesting reading that

Re: Spaying

Fiona Leathers — Thu, 08 Apr 2010 01:47:15 GMT

I was recently at a meeting that had Richard Coe as one of the speakers (he's a soft tissue specialist now working for Vets Now Hospital in Glasgow). A member of the audience asked him about early neutering & the effects it has on the animals.

His reponse was very interesting as he was advocating early neutering certainly from 4 months onwards, but mentioned that some rescue shelters abroad were doing them from a little as 6 weeks. He said that if we neutered early enough, we would eliminate mammary carcinomas completely. After the 1st season, the advantage is only by about 50% - if you wait until the bitch has had 4 seasons, then there is no point in neutering them to reduce mammary carcinomas, as all the damage has been done. Obviously, neutering to prevent pyo's would be advantageous.

He said that it is ony Britain that advocates neutering after 6 months and it was only done because that was the way it was always done - no actual evidence to back up that neutering at the age was more beneficial.

Another member of the audience asked him about urinary incontinence in spayed bitches - we're always told about incontinence if we spay too early, the sphincters don't mature properly etc - his reponse was that neutered bitches live longer, so is there are more older dogs therefore this increases the probability of incontinence. Also if we are spaying more dogs, surely the ratio would be skewed towards a greater number of spayed, incontinent bitches.

He also dispelled a myth that stump pyo's are due to too much cervical tissue left in the bitch - he said the main reason for stump pyo's are due to ovarian remenants - which makes sense when you actually think about it.

I have always advocated early neutering - my own Collie was done at 4 months, although it did take a lot of persuading, to get a vet to do it. My reasons - decreased blood supply to immature organs, such as womb & ovaries; increased healing rate; smaller wound. I monitored her op, exactly the same way I do everyone else - nothing was different, no special treatment.

In a study my students & I did last year, we discovered that the temperature drops dramatically during the pre-med, so we ensure the patient is pre-warmed with heat pads prior to op, so that their temperature is constant before scrubbing & opening them up. It doesn't make any difference if they patient has a heat pad during the op or not, its all to do with pre-op temperature - all patients (with heat pads & without) during the ops dropped 1-2 degrees unless they had been pre-warmed when their temperature stayed constant. It didn't matter about their size or age, just pre-warming. All operations were roughly the same length of time, with patients same size & age for a good comparison. I found it to be a very interesting study and was quite amazed at the results, wasn't really what I was expecting at all!

Re: Spaying

Steph Worsley — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:34:56 GMT

glad we got that straight

Re: Spaying

dinkyd — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:25:52 GMT

No problem Steph - thats the problem with internet never really know how to take things.

Re: Spaying

Steph Worsley — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:11:58 GMT

[quote user="dinkyd"]

Um Steph ..... would have hoped you would know what i mean sorry if i didnt use the correct technical terms.....Please do not make sarcastice digs at the ability of our Vet.

Just for the record the lab was very juvenile he simply rescheduled surgery until she was physically a bit more mature.Im sure you know the ones but then ...maybe not.

[/quote]

Apologies if my post caused offence Dinky, it wasnt meant that way at all,

Re: Spaying

Maisy — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:30:59 GMT

Incidently there is some concern that early neutering can increase the risk of osteosarcoma development in large breed dogs. There is one article here that is quite interesting -

http://www.andelrottweilers.com/healthstudiesandinformation.html and scroll down to the pros/cons of neutering article. There is more information available on this and if you have access to RCVS library or the online journal sites it might be of some interest.

Personally I wouldn't go for juvenile neutering for pet owned dogs, I can completely understand the reasoning of rescues for deciding to do this though. It's a matter of opinion and I wouldn't begrudge or try and sway a client into neutering their 6 month old Mastiff for instance if they do have concerns over growth/development and indeed cancer. It's different if the client just doesn't want to neuter for reasons such as cost (there are means of help for this) or if they have an old school opinion that it will make their male less of a 'man', or their female should have a litter because that's what females are there for, in which case I would strongly recommend neutering.

From experience the more you try and push a procedure the less likely to client will take to it. If they are fully aware of the pro's and con's at least they can make their own decision and we will have provided informed advice on health.

Re: Spaying

dinkyd — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:25:36 GMT

Um Steph ..... would have hoped you would know what i mean sorry if i didnt use the correct technical terms.....Please do not make sarcastice digs at the ability of our Vet.

Just for the record the lab was very juvenile he simply rescheduled surgery until she was physically a bit more mature.Im sure you know the ones but then ...maybe not.

Re: Spaying

vickylianne — Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:27:13 GMT

We advise from about 5 & half months to spay, if had a season then 3months from the end of season.

There is no hard & fast rule to say that its best to let them have a season, that is just total personal opinion and there is in fact a lot of evidence to support having them spayed before season i.e mammary tumours etc. The risk of inconntinance is small and could also still happen if spaying after a season has been had!

At the end of the day there should be a practice protocol in place that all vets to abide by, vets should give the client the pros and cons of both sides and help the client decide that way.

Re: Spaying

Sal the 1st — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 23:12:03 GMT

just in case my post has been misinterpreted - by spaying before 1st season i mean a minimum of 5 months old.In the unlikely event a pup came into season before that would wait till 3 months after season I have seen pups spayed earlier with a flank incision but not usually before the age of 4 months and never encountered any problems with them.

Re: Spaying

Steph Worsley — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 22:42:00 GMT

personally i have always been in the spay at 6 months camp, should the bitch be coming into season at that point we would recommend doing the op 3 months post season

However I have known giant breed dogs be left till they were 12 months by some vets.

I really dont like performing surgery on a tiny pup seems mean and has been said about heat loss......and despite best efforts with peri-op heating they can still develop hypothermia.

StephB:

I realise that you have done a bit of research into this but the sites you have listed are pet owner sites, not veterinary sites and tbh I take pet owner sites with a huge pinch of salt (and some vet sites)

Regarding renal failure with GA's this can happen at any point (and yes it can be the GA especially if it is deep, it can also be the NSAID's used, hypothermia, dehydration, hypovolaemia that can cause acute renal failure, which in turn can lead to acute on chronic renal failure) and any age!!! Oh and to my mind a premed is part of a GA?!?!

Dinkyd:

I know some 9 year old labradors who are still puppy like.....would your vet keep sending them away then lol

Re: Spaying

Saskia Quinn — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 22:13:40 GMT

[quote user="Nick 'Batfink' Shackleton DipAVN(Surgical) VN"]

I really don't like the use of hot hands, especially the use of gloves filled with hot water, these cool down far too quickly and can easily be popped!!

[/quote]

haha this reminds me of a vet who took the huff with me when I told him NOT to give the poorly hedgehog hot hands lol!!!!

Re: Spaying

Steph Phillips — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:54:43 GMT

I see what you mean Nick.. we monitor the patients temp throughout the op.. not had any problems in the 9yrs I've been there. I'll def take what you said into account though..

Re: Spaying

Nick Shackleton — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:48:25 GMT

[quote user="*Steph *"]

We put a heat pad under the patient (under the beanbag bed thing!) - do you use these in practice??

[/quote]

You know most heat pads are weight activated therefore if you use them with smaller patients ie puppies, probably going to be ineffective at warming the patient, more likely to draw heat to the surface of the patient's skin causing further hypothermia.

Bubble wrap and tin foil are far better. Althou the later should not be used in the presence of diathermy.

I prefer a Bair hugger warming unit. This is a hot air warming unit that disperses hot air over the whole patient delivered through various shaped blankets that can be put either over or under the patient dependant on what surgery is being performed.

If you are using warming devises of any type be sure they are not in direct contact with the patient and always monitor temperatures under general anaesthesia.

I really don't like the use of hot hands, especially the use of gloves filled with hot water, these cool down far too quickly and can easily be popped!!

Re: Spaying

Steph Phillips — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:22:04 GMT

[quote user="Hollypup"]As said in a previous post heat loss from young puppies is a big consideration [/quote]

We put a heat pad under the patient (under the beanbag bed thing!) - do you use these in practice??

[quote user="ellie"]

I just don't understand the clients that get pyo's and then not realise its due to not being spayed and they then have to undergo extensive emergency treatment and end up getting spayed as a result.

Why not do it when they are young and more capable of recovering easier and quicker from the GA.

[/quote]

- exactly!

Re: Spaying

Ellie P — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 00:16:36 GMT

Surely it must depend on each and everyones different experience and opinions.

Although ive always been taught to do it before first season due to risks of mammory tumours.....tbh our vet perfers the above but will spay 3-4 months post season. This is to ensure everything inside has settled down again and makes surgery less complicated for us.

I just think anyone not breeding bitches/dogs or cats should neuter them as soon as possible for the health benefits involved.

I just don't understand the clients that get pyo's and then not realise its due to not being spayed and they then have to undergo extensive emergency treatment and end up getting spayed as a result.

Why not do it when they are young and more capable of recovering easier and quicker from the GA.

Re: Spaying

Anonymous — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 23:52:22 GMT

[quote user="Hollypup"]

Personal opinion as I said. Both I & the vets that I have worked with have all prefered to wait until after the first season. Having worked with young puppies under GA I would much rather wait until they are older. As said in a previous post heat loss from young puppies is a big consideration as is the stress on vital organs such as liver/kidneys. In fact I have seen a few puppies & kittens that have died as a result of early renal failure due to GAs being administered at an early age. The most recent being a 16 week old puppy.

[/quote]

surely if you're doing your job and taking that into account when preparing the theatre and having the necessary means to keep the body temp up it wouldn't be an issue and would be just like any other but a different protocol, same as you would do things differently with a pregnant or over weight bitch or deep chested dog. You sure the renal failure was from the GA and not the pre-med?

Re: Spaying

Amy Buey RVN — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 22:42:27 GMT

Re: Spaying

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:31:20 GMT

ooohh sorry i managed to do a double post

Re: Spaying

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:30:22 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

I obviously would go with whatever the practice I am working for at the time wants - but myself I am firmly in the spay before 1st season camp because of the benefits of not getting mammary tumours in later life. I am aware there is a slight risk of urinary incontinence in bitches spayed early but the risk of mammary neoplasia in bitches spayed after their first season is greater.

[/quote]

double snap!

Although I have only owned 2 dogs and both were done post season! First pooch I was 14 and didn't know any better (and no my folks didn't have a clue - left it to me as it was my dog!) She just had the one saeson though - I remeber buying some Bob Martins 'Bitch Spray' or some such crap!!

Second pooch was rehomed to me as a 3 year old entire girlie about 18mths ago, and I had her done dot on 3 months after her last season!

Re: Spaying

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:30:10 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

[/quote]

double snap!

Second pooch was rehomed to me as a 3 year old entire girlie about 18mths ago, and I had her done dot on 3 months after her last season!

Re: Spaying

Claire Cameron — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:14:41 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

[/quote]

Snap.

Re: Spaying

LoveCat — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:54:24 GMT

I also wanted my little girl done before her first season as I did not want the mood changes that come with it. A couple of my friends have entire bitches (even though I nag them constantly to spay!) and they say they turn into different dogs when in season - grumpy and stroppy etc.

Re: Spaying

Sal the 1st — Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:23:27 GMT