Ethics

Re: Ethics

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 23:14:47 GMT

I have read through this thread, and like many on here am wondering where Ian has gone.......... possibly to some far flung neutering campaign that needs his full attention and experience.

Ian when you check in next, and I know you are a busy man, but can you leave more than your CV and a diss for other members, can you maybe participate in a thread that has incited so much interest, and interest I believe is close to your all important work

Re: Ethics

Louise B — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 22:10:34 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

you know i used to be like this - and then i worked in charities for a decade or so and it sort of changes your perspective - you dont get hardened to it , you just look at it differently. (well I do)

Rehoming centres - is it really fair to keep cats and dogs cooped up for sometimes years hoping that somebody will rehome them? What sort of quality does life hold for these animals?

Is it fair to rehome a dog/cat with problems and then get it back from the new owner because they cant cope with it and pass it onto another home? again what quality of life?

newborn kittens and puppies - ok I used to do a lot of handrearing but now my opinion is there are plenty of healthy kittens and puppies out there needing homes. I would not have a problem euthanasing in this case.

Just my thoughts and I will probably be strung up for them

[/quote]

Not at all. But this seems to reflect how some of the nurses on here have replied. It seems to reflect a desire to make things black and white i.e. neutering or euthanasia is either always right or always wrong when I don't think is that straight forward. This is my concern with Ian's statement about humane euthanasia not being a welfare issue. For what it is worth, I would have few objections about the euthanasia any animal that I felt had a poor quality of life and which I did not feel could, in all practicality, be improved. For me, that also includes dogs in shelter, etc. But that is precisely because I think that the welfare of the animal in the absence of euthanasia would be poor.

I do work at the hard end: I work in animal research. However, my views have not changed as a consequence of this. I was actually asked about my views on animal euthanasia as part of one of my jobs and my reply to the interviewers sums up how I did, and do, feel about euthanasia of fit, healthy animals: I think it is wrong, but sometimes it is a necessary wrong and sometimes it is the lesser of two wrongs. But that should not detract from the fact that it is still wrong.

Throw away remarks such as humane euthanasia is not a welfare issue make it to easy for us to justify the use, abuse and destruction of animals. I understand why it is a popular belief but, at the same time, I think it is also a dangerous one. However, my viewpoint is not a conventionally accepted one.

Re: Ethics

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:58:02 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

Rehoming centres - is it really fair to keep cats and dogs cooped up for sometimes years hoping that somebody will rehome them? What sort of quality does life hold for these animals?

Is it fair to rehome a dog/cat with problems and then get it back from the new owner because they cant cope with it and pass it onto another home? again what quality of life?

Just my thoughts and I will probably be strung up for them

[/quote]

Well Sal, if you are strung up for your views, then they make take me with you!! You have exactly put into words what I tried to say, but couldnt find the words to do so!! Thank you

Re: Ethics

Sal the 1st — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:55:15 GMT

Rehoming centres - is it really fair to keep cats and dogs cooped up for sometimes years hoping that somebody will rehome them? What sort of quality does life hold for these animals?

Is it fair to rehome a dog/cat with problems and then get it back from the new owner because they cant cope with it and pass it onto another home? again what quality of life?

Just my thoughts and I will probably be strung up for them

Re: Ethics

Louise B — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:45:22 GMT

I believe that the traditional answer relies on something like this:

Good (or bad) welfare is a state of existence (i.e. you can exist in a good state of welfare or a bad state of welfare), when you die you cease to exist, therefore you cannot be in a state of good or bad welfare after death.

This is often why people argue that only the manner of dying is a welfare issue as you can suffer in the process of dying while you still exist as a conscious being if the method of euthanasia is not 'humane'. Of course, you could go the other way and define humane euthanasia as only that euthanasia which prevents ongoing suffering (caused by other aspects of life that would cause suffering if the animal was permitted to live). Thus, humane euthanasia is not sad at all. Rather it is the kind release from the sad events that preceded the act of euthanasia or would have been the animal's state of poor welfare/existence had it not been euthanased.This is the view that I favour: even if the manner of dying is completely without pain e.g. the animal was sedated to it didn't even feel the pain of the injection but the animal was fit and healthy and would have gone on to have a happy life then the euthanasia of that animal is not humane. I believe that is the definition of euthanasia in human cases also.

Basically, to my mind killing an animal can be split into 4 categories:

1) Kind method of killing and a 'good death' (e.g. animal dying of cancer and suffering intolerable pain PTS'd using a method of killing that does not cause/minimises pain of death) = humane euthanasia (my view)

2) Kind method of killing and a 'bad death' (e.g. fit healthy puppy that would have had a life of good welfare in the absence of death as a good home was potentially available PTS'd by a method of killing that does not cause/minimises pain of death) (a popular notion of euthanasia)

3) Nasty method of killing and a 'good death' (e.g. cat dying of cancer and in intolerable pain being killed by its owner by being kicked to death)

4) Nasty method of killing and a 'bad death' (e.g. a fit healthy puppy with a home waiting that is kicked to death by the current owner).

To my mind option 2 is a cosy bit of cognitive dissonance designed to help those involved in the destruction of healthy fit animals who would otherwise have had a life worth living cope with the consequences of their actions. But this view is not commonly shared in the "academic-welfare circles".

Re: Ethics

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:26:38 GMT

also, the vet in question (providing a home) refused to euthanase them. So if she was the only vet on the premises, that didnt matter, the receptionists had to get another. She just couldnt bring herself to do it

Re: Ethics

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:25:13 GMT

Yes, Louise & Missvetnurse I would be keen to know why he says that.

However, in a practice we used to have the contract from the council to euthanase stray animals. The nurses were all filled with dread on the day the van was due to arrive and done their best to 'save' a lot of the dogs by letting them stay in a vet colleagues home (she had loads of stables etc) until a home could be found. There were many horror stories, terrible

Re: Ethics

Claire Cameron — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:23:05 GMT

Damn this website I cant log off lol its too addictive and I keep reading this post and confusing myself because im tired my brain cant process the information lol. yet i still have questions popping into my head about it all

ahhh right im going to try and log off...prob wont happen lol

Re: Ethics

Claire Cameron — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:21:38 GMT

[quote user="Louisesadieandshads"]

[quote user="Ian M"]

Humane euthanasia, by the way, while sad, is not a welfare issue.

[/quote]

Why?

[/quote]

I also would like to know why you think this

Re: Ethics

Louise B — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:18:13 GMT

LOL. I know that feeling.

Re: Ethics

Claire Cameron — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 21:11:57 GMT

hehe thought u meant me for asking Ian

ohh dear. long day. need bed me thinks

Re: Ethics

Louise B — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:08:44 GMT

[quote user="MissVetNurse"]

me? im not arguing anything! just my little brain couldnt handle all this ethics talk this afternoon after 3 emergencies my brain was a tad fried

[/quote]

Eh? Does anybody think you are? If you mean me I was replying to Ian's comments!

Re: Ethics

Claire Cameron — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 20:02:29 GMT

me? im not arguing anything! just my little brain couldnt handle all this ethics talk this afternoon after 3 emergencies my brain was a tad fried

Re: Ethics

Louise B — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:58:03 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]

[quote user="MissVetNurse"]

[quote user="Ian M"]

Would like the ethicists to have a try at some of the jobs I've done and see if they still feel the same.

And if they do, they will then get my full respect.

Humane euthanasia, by the way, while sad, is not a welfare issue.

[/quote]

Which jobs are you referring to Ian? with regards to ethicists?

[/quote]

Something tells me he is going to refer to neutering?

[/quote]

Lol - I think you might just be right!

I am also not quite sure re: the point of Ian's statement. Are you trying to argue that neutering is not immoral/ wrong ever?

Ps. I am an ethicist - I define ethicist as somebody who believes in right and wrong - and I believe most people (including yourself Ian) are also ethicists. I have also been involved in neutering fulltime for a charity (the same one as I believe you may now work for!) so, although my experience does not rival yours I am not completely naive in this respect plus, even if I had seen 1000s, nay 1,000,000s, of cases of suffering due to not neutering, that still would not alter my opinion that that does not automatically make it the right thing to do in all cases and for all animals.

By way of an analogy, I believe that there are times in which it is right or, at least, defensible, for a man to kill another man, however, I do not therefore automatically believe that it is always right to kill man. Each circumstance needs consideration on its own merit.

Re: Ethics

Louise B — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:51:02 GMT

[quote user="Ian M"]

Humane euthanasia, by the way, while sad, is not a welfare issue.

[/quote]

Why?

Re: Ethics

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:44:10 GMT

[quote user="MissVetNurse"]

[quote user="Ian M"]

Would like the ethicists to have a try at some of the jobs I've done and see if they still feel the same.

And if they do, they will then get my full respect.

Humane euthanasia, by the way, while sad, is not a welfare issue.

[/quote]

Which jobs are you referring to Ian? with regards to ethicists?

[/quote]

Something tells me he is going to refer to neutering?

Re: Ethics

Claire Cameron — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:34:30 GMT

[quote user="Ian M"]

Would like the ethicists to have a try at some of the jobs I've done and see if they still feel the same.

And if they do, they will then get my full respect.

Humane euthanasia, by the way, while sad, is not a welfare issue.

[/quote]

Which jobs are you referring to Ian? with regards to ethicists?

Re: Ethics

Claire Cameron — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 15:33:22 GMT

[quote user="Rachel Jayne"]

People borrowing money/blowing their benefits on an expensive pedigree dog/cat, then asking for charity to get it neutered....

Used to see a lady who bred pedigree cats, but because she was off work on permanent sick, she got the pet cats neutered with full-cost! vouchers....

[/quote]

I agree 100%!!!!! P*sses me off something chronic!!!

"Hi, I'm on benefits please can I get discount to neuter my expensive Dogue du Bordeaux/Husky etc etc" ARRGGGHHHH

Re: Ethics

Ian_M — Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:52:18 GMT

I'll be brief here.

My background:

Started workign as a nurse in 1990, qualifying in 1995, having worked always in charities.

Worked within the management of rescue centres for 5 years.

Worked in animal welfare law enforcement for 8 years

Currently manage and coordinate all the neutering work for a large national animal charity across the UK, currently responsible for a spend of £4.2million.

In my spare time help I run 2 neutering programmes overseas and train animal welfare volunteers, vets and governments around the world (have worked in 18 countries to date)

Not and expert, reasonably well qualified to comment, and not especially interested in ethics, but see the consequences of not neutering regularly.

Would like the ethicists to have a try at some of the jobs I've done and see if they still feel the same.

And if they do, they will then get my full respect.

Humane euthanasia, by the way, while sad, is not a welfare issue.

Re: Ethics

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:09:32 GMT

Pyo's, Mammary tumours, hormonal cancers, prostate problems, some minor reasons to neuter.

Scumballs that say they own an animal when it is their scully friend and so get free treatment. When the charity is notified of dodgy dealings they shrug their shoulders.

People that call them selves something they are not snf people that also call them that for example:
veterinary nurse.
african or italian american (you are american if you are not born there you are not african or italian etc)
PC bloody brigade
Animal rights loonies (oh let us release these poor mink.. duh!)

***just out of bed to tired to think going back for more sleep***

Re: Ethics

Saskia Quinn — Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:28:18 GMT

Hi Louise, I take your comments on board, we all have our own opinions and there are 2 sides to this debate as previously stated though I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one

Re: Ethics

Louise B — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:21:04 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]

Having read this, why is neutering an issue for some?

[/quote]

Because not being neutering is not synonymous with overpopulation. Just because an animal is un-neutered does not mean it contributes to overpopulation. Yes, being entire is a prerequisite but so is having sex. Prevention of sex by any means will prevent overpopulation. If responsible pet ownership is partially defined by not contributing to the unwanted animals population then this can be achieved by not allowing an entire bitch to roam!!!

If a dog is not going to contribute to overpopulation, and if neutering is an elective procedure that carries a risk to the dog's life, then there is a case to be made that on a cost-benefit analysis the potential harm to that dog outweighs the potential benefit to society (which is neglible if the dog is not going to breed) . Of course you can factor in no pyos, reduced mammary risk, but you also have to factor in increased likelihood of obesity (regardless of charity claims), risk of incontinence (increasing risk of relinquishment, rejection by care-giver, reduced freedom within the house due to owner concerned about house-soiling), risk of surgical infection/bleed outs/other op-related problems, all of which the dog has no control over whether it takes that risk. There is also some dated, and rather limited research, suggesting that spaying bitches may make them more aggressive (although the work in this area is sketchy).

A case can be made for neutering to be both ethical and unethical dependent upon the animal that is neutered and the circumstances surrounding it. If we consider the fact that neutering a nervous, timid male dog may make that dog more timid/more nervous/more fearful of life as it now doesn't have testosterone giving it that extra confidence boost is it not therefore unethical to castrate that dog given that doing so will reduce its welfare, where welfare is defined as the 'state of the animal with regards to its ability to cope with its environment'. If what is ethical is what maximises welfare, then there is a definite case for arguing that neutering this dog is unethical!

The ethics of neutering or not neutering are not as clear cut as most of the veterinary profession seem to profess...

Re: Ethics

Saskia Quinn — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:13:45 GMT

Veterinary Nurse, Jo Welsby, and Student Nurse, Stacey Barlow, will be spending the night of 8th March 2009 in a cell in haunted Derby Gaol to raise funds for two animal welfare charities in Cyprus where Jo will be spending her holidays in April giving voluntary help.

Cyprus has a shocking record of animal cruelty and there are regular reports of much loved family pets being poisoned by meat, laced with a substance called lannate, which is often deliberately left in public areas. There is a huge problem with stray animals due to lack of education and ignorance about neutering. Often, these animals are involved in road accidents and are simply left at the side of the road to fend for themselves, or die. Recently, there has also been an alarming rise in the number of dogs and cats being abandoned or dumped in shelters by ex-pats returning to their country of origin after hitting financial difficulties. Animal welfare laws do exist in Cyprus but are rarely enforced.

Both Sirius Dog Sanctuary and Peyia Animal Rescue Club (PARC) rely solely on the tireless work of their teams of devoted volunteers to function.

Sirius Dog Sanctuary is far from the standard of the shelters we are used to here in the UK. Their premises are a disused factory building with no water supply of its own and no electricity. In 2008 they successfully rehomed 230 dogs locally and to visitors from other countries. They currently spend approximately €2000 every two months on veterinary fees. The shelter is also under threat of closure by the Cyprus government who has earmarked the land for other purposes. An online petition has been produced in order for supporters to show their support. Please feel free to visit and add your signature at: www.petitiononline.com/sirius03/petition.html

PARC rescue both dogs and cats but have no shelter so rely on volunteer fosterers to care for their cases in their own homes. They also regularly feed the many colonies of feral cats in hotel grounds and public places and arrange trap and neuter programmes. Each female cat costs approximately €50 to spay and treat for parasites, their monthly veterinary bill is around €1500 and food bills are €500 every month.

Jo and Stacey hope that by raising additional funds for both of these charities, more awareness can be created and more animals saved.

We would like to thank our colleagues at Ian McConnell’s Veterinary Practice for their support of this event and Mr. Richard Felix and his staff at Derby Gaol for allowing this event to go ahead. Details of the venue and its “residents” can be found at: www.derbygaol.com

Having read this, why is neutering an issue for some?

Re: Ethics

Helen Brewster — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:54:45 GMT

Just to say re neutering, the country that I believe has made it illegal is Norway - very good standard of human/animal care. BUT they have a small pet animal population (obviously controlled somehow - maybe sensible people!) so the issue of lots of strays etc doesn't appear to be a real problem like it is here and in America. I will investigate further....

I think the issue is that wild populations generally control themselves - wolves etc BUT the pet population is allowed to spiral out of control by humans, due to breeding/caring and feeding them. Therefore neutering is simply humans trying to control the mess they have made - none of which is the animals fault yet we subject them to a GA and surgery!

However, before you all eat me alive.... I totally agree that neutering is the only option to prevent suffering by overbreeding and sadly humans will never realise their errors!

Re: Ethics

Julie — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:13:31 GMT

We had a woman that came in to see if the PDSA had notified us that she would be getting assistance from them.

She then asked if she could advertise a litter of Pug puppies on our notice board and when she saw the look on my face said, that they weren't hers, she was looking after them for a friend.

A local Boxer and Chihuahua breeder is on sickness benefit (depression she tells us)but gets help from the local RSPCA with neutering her breeding stock when they are too old to breed from and then she rehomes them.

The best one is the girl who was getting help with her cats FAD and was utterly disgusted when I had to explain that the RSPCA wouldn't help her with the cats Pet Passport as she was going to Spain to work in a bar.

I could go on and on and ...................................! The people and animals that really need help are not getting the assistance that they need as money is given to those who know how to abuse the system.