Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Marie OConnor — Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:01:42 GMT

No your right he didn't, no doubt scaring a dog in front of thousands would be curel, It was show cased as a seminar to educate people on being strong calm and assertive pack leaders, It wasnt about him using scared nervous dogs to show how good he is at training. He did however describe the phsycology of a dogs mind and explain the techniques he uses on TV. I have not seen him use any techniques that any welfare association would be on to him for, and in fact he is now indeed partnered with the American Humanae association, their version of the RSPCA I have seen one TV episode where he used an electric collar once on one of his own dogs. He did expalin that this should not be used as training method and he was not undertaking the use of it lightly however he was only using it on one of his own dogs because it was a matter of life or death. Either the dog got one shock to know a rattle snake was deadly, or get a bite and die. He then used the dog (not collard up ) to educate the pack to the dangers of the rattle snake. Quite frankly I would rather use a collar on my own dog once than let it get bit and die. I have seen far more trouble caused to dogs by so called behaviourists than anything else, very good dogs completley ruined while the money keeps rolling in !!!!!

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Maisy — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:01:30 GMT

If the trainer is approved by the APDT that person needs to be reported to them as prong/shock collars are against their training methods

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Mrs Dot Dot — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 18:13:06 GMT

[quote user="NickyVN"]

I left a training school as they were advising prong collars and electric shock collars. Apparently traner is APDT qualified. Not impressed. They used shock for dogs that wouldnt do recall, this is on dogs only 6 mnths old!!

[/quote]

Nicky... where and when was that?????? They should be shot!!!! WHY do people not see that it won't work? What is it with people??? It gets me SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO mad!!!!

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Nicola Smith — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:19:48 GMT

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Kay Eminson — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:51:59 GMT

[quote user="Marie OConnor"]

I Did See him, and he was Fantastic. Everything he said made sense and he was a very down to earth Person. I was lucky enough to go back stage and meet him and he was still the same down to earth nothing to hide guy and he had a qualified UK vet checking dogs before they were allowed to undergo any training techniques on the stage. So critisise away Peeps, but be informed first !

[/quote]

Surprisingly he didn't use dogs with real problems and any dogs with problems probably would not show them when on stage surrounded by lights and thousands of people, funny how he did not show any of his techniques he uses on TV, clever really because he would know that if he used them then welfare and behaviour/training associations would be straight on the case.

He just taught how to be pack leader and walking dogs on the lead etc. The people I know who went found his show interesting but he didn't solve behaviour problems as they were hoping to. Nothing compared to Monty Roberts!

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Maisy — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:20:23 GMT

I am informed Still think there is a lot more to training dogs than the methods he uses though.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Marie OConnor — Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:10:11 GMT

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Marie OConnor — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 16:24:12 GMT

Im going to see him March 20th Liverpool, Cant wait............ I think he's fantastic

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Maisy — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 12:06:35 GMT

Not good They are easy to get hold of though, you can find anything on the internet

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Katie Tallett RVN MBVNA — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 12:04:24 GMT

we have a client who uses one with a flexi lead

we also haev a dog trainer who has told me of many dogs he has been out to help and people have been using prong / e collars BEFORE getting a trainer in!!

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 11:41:50 GMT

would just like to say prong collars are being used in this country - came across a few in practice ( one being used on the advice of a local 'behaviourist') and there are two dogs in this village both wearing prong collars. One a Doberman and the other a Rottweiler. They are more common than people think.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

littlehays — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 11:35:56 GMT

yeah true, i was just saying i hadn't personally seen them used. don't like the idea of them but have heard of people using them over here...

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Maisy — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 11:17:53 GMT

Prong and electric collars are used by him quite often - check his website. In my opinion these are quick fixes, the problem isn't being addressed instead the dog is learning through pain and fear. We don't use them in this country and plenty of dogs with the same problems CM is training manage to learn just fine without them!

Just my opinion of course...

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

littlehays — Sat, 06 Mar 2010 07:44:47 GMT

to be fair to the guy all his programmes go out with warnings not to attempt the training methods depicted without seeking the advice of a professional (or words to that effect), and i wouldn't say his methods constitute a quick fix at all - programme probably makes it seem like that, but who knows how long they actually spend with each dog. also never seen him use a prong collar on any programme.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:58:11 GMT

[quote user="Maisy"]

[quote user="STRVN"]

I did however have a matriarch in one of my dogs. She was never overbearing, but she did command respect from the other dogs, and they all treated her like the queen bee. Ie giving up a toy for her, floor space for her, and even went as far as licking her face..like a puppy does to a mother.

[/quote]

I'd never really considered the whole alpha pack thing in pet dogs til I worked at the rescue centre and saw what you mentioned. It was really interesting to see as some of the more sociable dogs would play together and there was one particular female collie who just had an 'air' to her and she would just have to give a look to the other dogs if they were being pests to her and they would give up toys etc and lick her face. Interesting stuff!

[/quote]

Very interesting. One time after an altercation with my male(who she never ever aknowl;edged) she walked into the room, and he would leave, and if he was already in the room and she walked in, he would never give her eye contact, and would eventually get up and leave. The only thing she ever done to him, was as i mentioned an altercation. She was getting a biscuit from me, he tried to take it, she snapped him... he went to have a go and she just hurled him onto the floor and stood over him.... he was lying in a heap with his eyes scrunched up. Now he was a big dog, and could easily have taken her on.. she was very old and arthritic, and he was 18 months old at the time.., but he definitely did not want to go there with her. I remember slowly and quietly distracting hr with another biscuit, to get her away from him. I knew if I had raised my voice, or touched her at that time, she might well have had a go at him. After that as i say, he stayed awa from her.

She would always amaze me with her "look" and the other dogs would just give up anything for her. she was actually one of the best dogs I have ever had, and very biddable. And apart from that one time, she never had any altercations with any of the other dogs.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Maisy — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:45:40 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

[/quote]

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:37:16 GMT

[quote user="Maisy"]It can, yes. But it can also turn the other way and worsen the problem 10x over. Personally I think it can be a very risky method to use[/quote]

I do agree with that, and that is why I said that although it had worked for my dog it may not necessarily work for all dogs. One of the dogs I have just now had a similar phobia.... mainly traffic, I did not however do the flooding with her, as Isaid the dog that I have done it on was many years ago. Anyway I did subject her to the stimulus, but a more gradual increase.. and she is fine now.

I know the Alpha role model is not something that is subscribed to now, and I do know that neither of my dogs act in a manner of "top dog" either with me or amongst themselves, and people when they ask me who is boss amongst the dogs, when I say none of them they do look at me rather strangely..they expect one to be "in charge" of the rest, but it is not the case in my house. I did however have a matriarch in one of my dogs. She was never overbearing, but she did command respect from the other dogs, and they all treated her like the queen bee. Ie giving up a toy for her, floor space for her, and even went as far as licking her face..like a puppy does to a mother.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Maisy — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:13:40 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

I dont think I mentioned using cruel methods! I believe I mentioned using methods that were not cruel, but worked.

[/quote]

I know you didn't, but I do think CM uses cruel training methods in some dogs to get effects, that what I was getting at Therefore wouldn't be recommending him for that when there are trainers/behaviourists who can get the effect without resorting to pinch/prong collars etc.

[quote user="STRVN"]

You see I would not condone that.. that is cruel, but you cant say that flooding does not work in certain situations, or with certain types of behaviour..as in my case noise [/quote]

It can, yes. But it can also turn the other way and worsen the problem 10x over. Personally I think it can be a very risky method to use.

[quote user="STRVN"]

I suppose yes, if you are forcing the dog to be aggressive,but is CM not forcing it to be non aggressive?

[/quote]

Wasn't so much about the collars I was meaning, more when he physically manouevres (sp?!) a dog into position. I don't mean pushing the dogs bottom down if he wants them to sit, more almost laying on top of a dog that was jumping up and barking at strangers (??), or bellowing at face level of a growling dog telling it to stop. I don't consider any of this safe behaviour for a human to be practising, and what he is insisting owners to follow in order to practice the 'alpha role' is old news now. Like I said there have been advancements in the field and CM doesn't seem to have followed it. Instead he focuses on quick fix methods which might work in the short term but don't do an awful lot for a number of dog in the long term for either overall behaviour, or relationship with owner.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Sally Seddon — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:41:57 GMT

[quote user="charliv"]

I think as a profession we don't get taught enough about behaviour and training techniques and we should be very careful in what advise is given to clients.

[/quote]

Could not agree more. Cant say i have ever watched this guy, i have heard of him but have never watched his show.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 17:11:33 GMT

[quote user="Maisy"]

Because there are plenty of other trainers/behaviourists who don't need to use cruel methods to get the desired effect.

[/quote]

I dont think I mentioned using cruel methods! I believe I mentioned using methods that were not cruel, but worked.

Possibly....however seeing the state a Border Collie got into when told to lock him in the garage on NYE, having got into so much of a state she started chewing the brick walls to escape I'm yet to be convinced. You see I would not condone that.. that is cruel, but you cant say that flooding does not work in certain situations, or with certain types of behaviour..as in my case noise.[quote user="Maisy"]

But if you're forcing a behaviour regularly onto a dog who doesn't particularly want to be, surely that's giving him/her ample opportunity for when they do snap!

[/quote]

I suppose yes, if you are forcing the dog to be aggressive,but is CM not forcing it to be non aggressive? ie the pronged collar, albeit in a cruel fashion. Aversion techniques such as moving away from the stimulus are never going to work... one of those days you may not get out of the situation and confrontation is inevitable.. surely you have to expose something to a stimulus to correct the behaviour? Dont think I am condoning the collar... I am most certainly not.. but I just wonder how else you could cure aggression towards other dogs or people etc, without the use of such devices, and gaurantee that the methods and techniques that are used work.

I hope you are not taking all this the wrong way Maisy... I am genuinely enjoying this debate, and like to see what and how others think on the issue.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Charlotte Fitzgerald — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:19:36 GMT

I'm finding this thread so interesting, as someone who has recently taken on a rescue dog who comes with a few problems.

I have had some much conflicting advise about what to do about his certain behaviours and am fed up with members of the public thinking that they know everything about behaviour and asking have you not seen Cesar Milan's programme?

Now i'm not going to slate Cesar as like others have said I think he has some valid techniques and also agree that his dominance techniques shouldn't be advised as they will be handled wrong by dog owners.

I think as a profession we don't get taught enough about behaviour and training techniques and we should be very careful in what advise is given to clients.

I find it so frustrating getting so much conflicting advise, I do believe that different techniques should be used depending on each individual and not classified into one set technique.

I am in the process of trying to find a "good behaviourist" that can help me out with my boys last few problems, without having to spend a silly amount of money to find the right one.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Maisy — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 16:00:56 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

I was advised exactly that by a vet many years ago to cure my dog of her noise phobia..... and it actually worked, I no longer had a nervous dog, but a confident one. I am not saying that this would happen with every dog... there will always be the exceptions, but I dont think you can rule it out, even as a last resort.. which in my case it was

[/quote]

[quote user="STRVN"] you cannot gaurantee that though, even with the kinder approach! if anything the prolonged approach in some situations can just give the dog more time to inflict injury, if aggression is the behaviour that you are trying to conquer [/quote]

But if you're forcing a behaviour regularly onto a dog who doesn't particularly want to be, surely that's giving him/her ample opportunity for when they do snap!

[quote user="STRVN"]

You see this is what I dont get.... he is damned if he does, and damned if he does not!! surely if some of his techniques are bearing fruit without cruelty... then as a behaviourist you would surely grab onto that.... not ignore it.

[/quote]

Because there are plenty of other trainers/behaviourists who don't need to use cruel methods to get the desired effect.

There have been lots of advancements in dog behaviour over the last couple of decades but CM has carried on with his old-school techniques. Horses for courses though, he's just not someone I would advocate following.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:40:40 GMT

[quote user="Maisy"]'Flooding' the dog with its fearful stimulus [/quote]

[quote user="Maisy"]However I would rather spend my money on someone who uses recognised kind methods, and not something that is going to risk my dog becoming: a) a nervous wreck, b) exacerbate any aggression or c) result in potential injury to me or others[/quote]

you cannot gaurantee that though, even with the kinder approach! if anything the prolonged approach in some situations can just give the dog more time to inflict injury, if aggression is the behaviour that you are trying to conquer.[quote user="Maisy"]

I know there are people who have successfully followed CMs techniques and not all of them involve forceful behaviour, but personally I wouldn't follow the advice of someone who did advocate this and would never recommend him.

[/quote]

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Maisy — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:19:21 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

This post is no disrespect to all behaviourists, I do have respect for many.But I am not going to jump on the badwagon of hate... just because our profession says they know best... at the end of the day..no one knows what a dogs thoughts are, not even CM.

Now I await the onslaught

[/quote]

LOL! No onslaught here.....

I agree that as a veterinary profession, we certainly do not know best about animal behaviour at all (unless further specific training has been carried out). It may be very briefly included in vetmed/VN/ANA in basic form etc but the practical experience of observing animals and their behaviour cannot be properly assessed in practice IMO.

However......

Confrontational training methods? Some methods CM uses such as pinning a 'dominant' dog to the floor, should it really be carried out by an inexperienced owner? Or an experienced one for that matter? To me that's more likely to result in a badly bitten owner than a reformed dog.

'Flooding' the dog with its fearful stimulus - do we ever advise clients who have noise sensitive dogs to keep them locked in an empty room while fireworks are at their most? Don't give them anywhere to hide and let them ride out the fear as it were? I am scared of spiders and know for a fact if I was locked in a cupboard and had a box full of spiders thrown onto me it would do s*d all in curing this phobia.

I agree the the pet behaviour field can be filled with some dodgy con-artists who see it as an easy money making scheme (mentioning no name of the franchise that is around - go on a course for a few days then phooof! You can set up as a dog behaviourist!) However I would rather spend my money on someone who uses recognised kind methods, and not something that is going to risk my dog becoming: a) a nervous wreck, b) exacerbate any aggression or c) result in potential injury to me or others. Even for aggressive animals there are ways and means of trying to control or cure the behaviour but by challenging the dog like CM does, isn't likely to improve this.

Re: Has anyone heard about Cesar Milan's UK tour?

Sal the 1st — Fri, 05 Mar 2010 15:14:24 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

I am going to be devils advocate here... CM is a guy who spends everyday with dogs, watching and studying their interactions, and has done so for many many years. He has a group of dogs who are IMO the best behaved and from what I can see calm cool and collected. Now if he had been a cruel trainer in any of those dogs rehabilitation, would they fawn over him with no sign of fear or subordination?

I know prong collars are not used in this country, and have seen them used on aggressive animals in his programme... animals that would in all likelyhood kill another dog etc if given the chance.(it could be your dog) These dogs would probably be re homed..(not good for the psyche of the dog) and not good for any new unsuspecting owner. I dont like the prong collar, and personally think if a dog is that bad, then euthanasia is def an option, because I cant see the kinder methods ever working on a dog with such rage ...again this is my opinion.The use of shock collars are used and lawful in this country....much to my surprise, when we had a stray brought to us with one on. I cant say if he uses them or not, as I have never seen them used in any of the programmes I have watched. Some of his methods I dont agree with or like, but some I find fascinating , and one in particular I have used many times on my lot, to dispell an impending fight situation.. I merely lay my hands on both the dogs necks and the situation dissolves immediately.. so for that little piece of magic.... because as far as I am concerned it is magic, then I am thankful.......no cruelty involved, plus it did not cost me hundreds of pounds and endless prolonged sessions with a behaviourist who spends more time reading about behaviour than actually interacting with dogs on a daily basis. There are many out there, willing to part you from your cash!

Now I await the onslaught

[/quote]

well I agree in part with what you have said. I feel that yes there are different opinions from different people and different ways of doing things - some good some not so good. There are behaviourists who I think hit the nail on the head with some stuff and yet other stuff they seem so far from the mark. Nobody knows what a dog is thinking and nobody can say definitely that a dog will behave in a set way - there are as many variations as there are dogs - you can make an educated guess but that is as far as it goes

Its the same in human therapy - if I am seeing a client and say they dont fit in with for eg gestalt theory, then I have to start looking around at what is appropriate for that client which might mean using CBT, NLP, a bit of hypnotherapy a bit of counselling, sometimes EMDR - I do what I need to do to get a result but if I stuck to one methodology or told that client I might get nowhere and end up with a client so demotivated they give up on sorting stuff for themselves.

one of the first lessons I learnt in therapy was 'if it aint working do something else' and far too many behaviourists out there seem to think if it aint their way it aint no way. We have this in therapy as well - people so stuck in their own method they discount everybody elses method , or shout down the 'opposition', its too much like playground 'gangs' for my liking. It seems like everybody wants to be 'a name' in this business and that means dragging down somebody elses name through the dirt to get there