New Vets

Re: New Vets

S-J — Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:36:13 GMT

i quite enjoy helping the new grads, even if its just to point them in the right direction, i dont usually tell them what to do i usually just ask them questions so that they can feel better about it, even just telling them not to worry if i.e trouble catheterising and poss try differently, seems to help them.

on the other hand the more i help them when they need it the more help they give you when you need it. if anyone has got any tips to helping them i would appreciate it (esp improving thier confidence)

Re: New Vets

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:18:47 GMT

Thanks for the lovely post Sal - it's nice when a nurse understands just how tough life is for a new vet. We wouldn't choose a system where on day one you are left alone - it is absolutely petrifying. Unfortunately there is no better option.

[quote user="sal the 1st"]maybe a system like green L plates would work[/quote]

The difficulty with any post-graduation training/shadowing etc is:

-how the vet would be perceived by the clients. Who would volunteer to see the vet with L plates, and then pay a full consult fee? Or, even more so, allow the L-plated vet to operate on their pet?

-If the fees were reduced, or if the vet simply shadows and doesn't do any extra work than would be done already, then the practice wouldn't expect to pay them a vet's wage. Who would? So it would basically be an extra training year that the student would need to fund.

[quote user="sal the 1st"]and more practical experience before qualifying[/quote]

This is where seeing practice comes in - and why it is so vital that all those experienced friendly nurses out there find time to help the vets with their basic competences. Nurses are far better at teaching day to day procedures - especially how to put in catheters and bandage them so that they STAY IN!!!

[quote user="sal the 1st"]I do feel that people skills can be seriously lacking but how much of that is because they are concentrating on so much other stuff.[/quote]

Exactly - you spend so much time and energy trying to get the exam and diagnosis right, you forget about the client....

[quote user="sal the 1st"] I can imagine it could be a very lonely, worrying world out there for a new grad[/quote]

A supportive practice is vital. As a vet student you are so used to having someone there to ask....suddenly being on your own in a room/theatre with a sick animal, and feeling that sense of responsibility descend on you...well....I've never heard my own heart beat so clearly in my life as I used to as a new grad! Or felt nauseous so often.....

Inevitably there will be some new grads whose attitudes are not open to help, criticism and constructive advice...but on the whole...feel some sympathy for them!!

Re: New Vets

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:07:06 GMT

ROFLMAO sorry Sal started to read your post and had a vision of all new grads with a big green L poster stuck onto their backsides and another hanging around their necks from the front

Re: New Vets

Maisy — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:52:44 GMT

[quote user="hissycat"]

I have seen new grads in tears or close to it on many occasions. It would be nice if they could be shadowed by a more experienced vet for a few weeks, or at least have a willing mentor to be 'on call' if they were unsure of things. Imagine if a newly qualified human doctor was told to just get on with surgery on a human.

[/quote]

Absolutely. A lot of them are just thrown in at the deep end when they really would benefit from the help of a more experience surgeon/clinician. I think though all members of the practice need to be aware of this though as I've seen new grads have tricky consults booked in for them that would take 30 mins or so with an experienced vet never mind someone who's just left uni.

Re: New Vets

Sal the 1st — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:49:18 GMT

maybe a system like green L plates would work and more practical experience before qualifying. I do agree that some grads seem ill prepared for practice - I suppose a lot of this could be a lack of confidence or not wanting to screw up. - a sort of incompetant competency if you like - I do feel that people skills can be seriously lacking but how much of that is because they are concentrating on so much other stuff. I think its easy to forget sometimes that a lot of nurses have the advantage because we have had to learn these skills as we go along with our training and are using them every day and if we dont pick them up pretty quick we are not of much use to the practice and therefore dont get the chance to stay. I can imagine it could be a very lonely, worrying world out there for a new grad

Re: New Vets

hissycat — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:31:17 GMT

We used to have a lot of new grad vets at my old practice and while they were absolutely lovely to work with and brilliant theoretically, I did find practical skills missing, but not sure if this is the fault of their training or just that the practice expects too much. I felt very sorry for them as they were expected to come in on their first day and just get on with things, e.g. a very busy surgery, spaying/castrating a load of cats etc, and had very little support from senior surgeons. I have seen new grads in tears or close to it on many occasions. It would be nice if they could be shadowed by a more experienced vet for a few weeks, or at least have a willing mentor to be 'on call' if they were unsure of things. Imagine if a newly qualified human doctor was told to just get on with surgery on a human.

Re: New Vets

EFM — Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:14:38 GMT

I definatley agree that how a new grad will cope with practice life will only truely appear post qualification. Which is my point about arming them adequately with skills to help them.

I know my points are very specific, but this is a true representation of our new grads. Quite possibly an internship would attract those that are not confident to be let out into the big wide world and I am seeing a skewed result! In answer to the IV catheter usage, we do stop them after one leg so that a good cephalic remains for another vet/vn, but how many times do you stop them from doing it, regardless, this is not my argument, my argument is simply that should private practices be footing the bill when they are supposed to be getting fully equipped vets....- One locum agency (Rig) are starting to suggest that new vets work as nurses for a year because they can't get jobs for new grads.

We have a cambridge student working with us at the moment, he works in a group of 6, but he is in a small year - and it is usually more.

The long caesarian consult was not a one off for that intern, however, it was more the point that intern had little if any awareness of the emergency aspect of the consult.

If the training will not change then new graduates will get lower pay as they are ill-equipped to work as a vet.

Re: New Vets

Steph Worsley — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:42:30 GMT

the maximum number of students we have per group is 5 but more often 4.

I can understand your frustration (obviously different vet schools do things differently i can only speak for us)

I agree that there should be more practical training but feel that this would lead it to be a 6 year course instead of 5 years.

your first point......could it have been the owners that were umming and ahhing about the caesar, I have known experienced vets taking a long time over such consults due to wanting to use oxytocin etc

your second point......didn't any other vet/nurse offer to take over the catheter placement....even the qualified clinicians at work will step aside for the nurses or other vets have a go (we also have interns and residents)

Third point....that is def not acceptable

fourth point......yes she should have been more professional, maybe pulled the nurse to one side or asked a more experienced vet to help.....no matter how much training you have been given when faced with your first fitting animal all your knowledge can (and often will) vanish into thin air

I think it all depends on how the new grads cope in themselves, I know plenty of our new grads who have gone out and done fab jobs and others who are not so good. But I also know experienced qualified vets who are exactly the same.

I think the best vet is the one not afraid of asking for help no matter if they are new grads or experienced.

I can always spot the students i dont think will do well out in the real world (especially in SA practice)

Re: New Vets

EFM — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 22:25:40 GMT

Thank you for you full explanation of how a veterinary student progresses in fourth year. I do appreciate that everyone progresses at different speeds and they have different levels of abilities. However. after 6 years of experiencing newly qualified vets I must maintain that I personally think that graduating vets should have better practical and work skills; ather than making it something they can elect to get better at, would you not agree that there should be a standard reached before they graduate. My poor poor boyfriend (a vet) says that the practical groups tend to be too large to actually let any of the students have a good go at doing anything for an adequate amount of time thus most of their practical training does not occur until post qualification. I do acknowledge that this is no doubt the case with many vocational degrees, however, to get the rest of the rant of my chest before the wine has a chance to ease my tattered nerves, let me exemplify my point:

*an hour and a half consult with a possible caesarian!

*2 interns joined at the same time and we ran out of IV catheters they got through so many messing up veins (we stoc ALOT)

*putting a cat to sleep and owners electing to take it home,the intern actually saying:half way home stop the car and check that he's definatley dead becasue I'm not sure!

*night shift, a fitting dog comes in, intern runs out crying leaving the nurse alone with clients and dog, 10 minutes later the nurse goes to find her sitting on stairs crying reading the Jones nursing book saying she doesn't know what to do.

These are just a few!! Please don't think me a vet-hater, some of my closest friends are vets and even used to be interns I am not attacking the interns, rather their training!

Re: New Vets

Steph Worsley — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:41:41 GMT

speaking as someone who helps teach these green vets things......... we do have them taking bloods and placing caths, you have to remember it is only in the later part of 4th yr that they actually get into the hosp and start on clinical rotations, anything before that is learnt whilst on EMS.

when they start their rotations they spend a certain length of time on each service within each area (ie smallies, equine, farm and then anaesthesia, internal med, soft tissue surgery etc) when their rotations are finished they do a 4 week block of electives, now their chosen elective may be in an area which offers no practical skills like that for SA practice eg equine soft tissue!

We try and encourage them as much as possible, we do have a 2 stab rule - they are allowed 2 attempts at a vein and then the qualified person takes over for the animals sake more than anything.

As for time management whilst on rotations with us new cases have an hours slot, 1/2 hour is for the student to take history do physical and then the clinician then discusses case with student and owner.

I think they are meant to be quicker when they do their first opinion rotation but this is only a small proportion of their time in the last 18 months of their uni time!

All this is another reason they do EMS (Coming out to see practice) so they can get an idea of how it is in the real world and hopefully get the oppurtunity to enhance skills such as bloods and catheters

Re: New Vets

Maisy — Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:48:28 GMT

My last practice used to take on quite a few 4th years from the RVC and they would get stuck into all practical things, and worked with QVNs to practice venepuncture etc. From the sounds of it they did this at uni too when working at the hospital as a lot of the practical things that VNs would do would be delegated to the vet students so they did well at this. Main problem that would occur, but would be expected, is time management usually because they weren't particularly confident (as you'd expect!) and everything took a lot longer. Haven't had any problems with their people skills though some of the vets trained in other countries where nurses aren't really used, can be a bit iffy but generally okay.