From Nurse to Vet???

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Beth Roberts — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:28:20 GMT

[quote user="hissycat"]

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/Undergraduate/BVetMedAcc/Entry.cfm

'Unfortunately a BSc(Hons) in Veterinary Nursing would not be considered a suitable basis for the D102 course.)

Thought I saw it somewhere! This is the accelerated degree, however. I suppose as a VN graduate you would have to apply for the full course, however you would still need very high A level grades from what I can see.

[/quote]

This must be a new thing because I know of several nurses who have done the accelerated programme at the RVC with a BSc (hons) VN degree. As far as I know all of the vet schools accept VN degrees as a qualification, it is done on individual merit as to whether you get onto an accelerated programme or not.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

hissycat — Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:47:11 GMT

http://www.rvc.ac.uk/Undergraduate/BVetMedAcc/Entry.cfm

'Unfortunately a BSc(Hons) in Veterinary Nursing would not be considered a suitable basis for the D102 course.)

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Polly P — Fri, 12 Feb 2010 06:05:32 GMT

I ponder if the decision to not up the minimum academic qualifications to start VN training is because they ('they' the decision makers) were afraid there would be a huge drop in applicants or alternatively the average industry wages would have to rise to counterract this?

I think almost everyone agrees that the pay for vn work does not reflect the scope of knowledge or training involved, and it would surely be off putting to a lot of people who had higher level qualifications to go the VN route with the money being not so good.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Louise B — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:06:27 GMT

[quote user="hissycat"]I don't understand why it is not 'suitable' to be honest. perhaps we should ask them! [/quote]

My thoughts exactly

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

hissycat — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:52:21 GMT

I'm finishing an essay at the mo (or supposed to be ) but i'll have a quick look again and post the link if I find it... I don't understand why it is not 'suitable' to be honest. perhaps we should ask them!

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Louise B — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:34:13 GMT

Ps. if was any other degree other than vet medicine then I would say, as a cynic, that what was considered a suitable degree would depend on whether you were an overseas student or not as overseas students are effectively cashcows for cash-strapped unis making them around £7 - 10,000 per annum extra. However, 2nd degree students are also cashcows for vet schools so that doesn't apply!

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Louise B — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:31:48 GMT

[quote user="hissycat"]

There is definitely one university that does not recognise any class of VN degree, can't remember which one now but it is mentioned in their prospectus. Says it is not considered suitable for progression onto vetmed. I just thought it was a bit odd considering the knowledge and also practical experience a degree VN would have. Other unis just ask for a suitable science degree, but do not clarify on what 'suitable' actually is.

[/quote]

That's very interesting. I didn't know that. If you remember which one let me know. It cannot be Nottingham or Edinburgh as I know for definite nurses have gone to these. Glasgow has USA students with vet tech degrees so guess it cannot be them. Must be either Bristol, Liverpool, Cambridge or RVC. RVC take psychology graduates so I would have thought that the take degree VNs. I am sure Frog&CatMad said that there are VNs on the course there so guess its not Liverpool.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

hissycat — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 12:12:58 GMT

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Louise B — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:58:00 GMT

[quote user="hissycat"] I was quite surprised also to see that the universities do not accept the VN degree as a suitable base to go on and study veterinary medicine. [/quote]

I must have missed that bit in the thread! My understanding is that they accept the vet nurse degree as a suitable base from which to go on to study veterinary medicine. They just don't accept the NVQ which is a judgement I agree with.

I think they just don't accept anyone who has any of the degrees that they recognise as suitable as a 1st degree prior to going on to vet medicine if you come out with a poor degree classification (i.e. 2.2 or 3rd class honours or an ordinary (no honours) degree). Which, I think is reasonable, as it suggests strongly that the candidate does not have an aptitude for degree-level academic work and vet medicine is a demanding course in terms of how much you need to learn in a short period of time.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Polly P — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:54:09 GMT

I think that's a very good point actually, that the NVQ doesn't really reflect the scope of learning and depth of knowledge required as a VN.

Customer services was one of the subject I assessed and as quite rightly said, what is needed to achieve a level 2 in that is about a 10th (estimate, as I say I am not yet in training) of what you would have done and understand to get the same level qualification at VN NVQ.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

hissycat — Thu, 11 Feb 2010 00:16:37 GMT

indeed. I suppose perhaps they wouldn't make the entry requirements higher because when people realised the bad deal VNs get they would take their higher qualifications elsewhere..

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Nick Shackleton — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:16:54 GMT

I've mentioned this before and I'll mention it again!!! The reason the RCVS decided to change VN qual to NVQ level II & III so that they could keep the entry requirements the same ie 5 GCSEs, if they wanted to make it a higher qualification level then they would have had to make the entry requirements higher..........

An NVQ level III in human healthcare can be obtained within 6-12 depending on which modules you are taking. No exam, or practicals just assessment within the workplace.

So I kinda feel cheated outta a qualification as SVNs have to work a lot harder for what they come out with!

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

hissycat — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:08:29 GMT

When I was working as a receptionist I started the nvq in customer services and it was something a bright primary school child could have completed! (no offence intended to anyone who has this qualification) It was definitely a far easier NVQ to get than the VN, amd it did bother me that my NVQ was considered at the same level. I am surprised at what you have said about assessing the portfolio as my assessors would have never signed off something I could not do or did not understand. In the years I have practiced I found my fellow VNs to be very bright, dedicated people. Anyway, even though the nvq system may have been flawed and for that reason not regarded by many as a reliable indicator of a persons intelligence, what about the RCVS theory and practical exams? you would not pass those (unless by extreme lucky guestimates) unless you had put in and understood the work, including some fairly difficult concepts. they must count for something? I was quite surprised also to see that the universities do not accept the VN degree as a suitable base to go on and study veterinary medicine. hmm.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Polly P — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:26:14 GMT

I am not yet in vet nurse training, but I am a qualified A1 nvq assessor (for other subjects than vn.)

With the company I worked for, funding from the LSC which pays for the NVQ's, and ergo paid our wages as assessors, was dependent on the amount of completions you got (ie, how many people you got to pass) and that they were 'timely completions' ie, if the student hadn't completed within a set amount of months/ years depending on the subject and the level, the funding for that person wasn't paid.

So with the company that employed me and the other assessors being a business and ergo in it to make money, we were pushed really hard to make our completions, by any means necessary, which included basically writing student's portfolio's for them, giving them an answer sheet of replies for recorded guided discussions, ticking off points of competancy that had not been demonstrated, and plenty more. These things were all endorsed and encouraged by both my immediate manager and the company as a whole, and this was one of the two largest nvq teaining providers in the UK.

Some of the students I trained/ assessed were obviously way more competant than the course, in fact some were clearly well above nvq level from their first visit, but some, I would sit there thinking 'this guy is never going to get this in a million years' but of course all passes come out equal.

I'm not in any way knocking the qualification of people who have nvq's and indeed if I am lucky enough to get a training place before the vn qualification changes over to the diploma, that is the path I will be taking, I am certianly not looking at doing the degree (I already read BA Marketing and hated every minute of being in uni and the full time academic life, so know that is not for me!) but I think the nvq system itself is flawed, and as has been mentioned, does not give such a clear indication of a person's level of competancy as other assesment and examination methods.

I would think most people who work with nvq's would agree with that (in all fields that use nvq's as their baseline, not just veterinary nursing) when the pool of those holding the qualification varies so greatly from people who are clearly working and thinking at a much higher level as well as those who make you shake your head at how they can dress themselfs in the morning!

Just to make very clear, not meaning to offend and my comments refer totally to the nvq procedure itself and not to anyone holding the qualification.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Laura Crump — Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:27:26 GMT

Hi twindy

I recently looked into studying vet medicine at uni and it's very difficult. I contacted all of the UK uni's and they all require either A-levels in Chemistry and Biology (mainly A Grade) or an alternative qualification equivalent to A Level (E.g an Access degree). Cambridge and Nottingham will accept the NVQ L3 as 1 A-Level but still require more. Obviously the practical element is fully covered by working full time but they still prefer a wide range of animal experience such as lab or abbatoir. The uni abroad is St George's and their website has all of the information. Unfortunately the fees everywhere are expensive and although you should qualify for bursarys and loans it's still very very expensive. However, you can work as a locum nurse as long as you keep up the required CPD time (i checked with RCVS). Sorry all this information is a bit jumbled.

You're very brave and good luck if you go for it

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Anonymous — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 11:10:16 GMT

Hey, I got my NVQ and BSc in Nursing and then went to Notts vet school to get the BVM BVS BVMSc (yes that is the degree u come out with!) I didnt complete (for personal reasons) but there were a few nurses on the course, its not that much harder, the fees were £3000 which is not full (only London and Notts will not charge full as a 2nd degree) but the other all charge £15000, Edinburgh is £17000.

if you dont have a degree already, Notts also do a 6yr option, where the first year is a catch up in chem and bio a levels to get you to same standard for 5 yr route.

Good luck.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

StephSVN — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:38:23 GMT

Hi all

I have been following this thread from the start, although never had time to reply until now - and most of the points I wanted to raise have been raised many times now!

I am currently in the final year of a VN degree not recognised by the RCVS, meaning I have to do the RCVS exams on top of the degree side of things and full NVQ portfolio. There is one point to consider if you are thinking of going on to be a vet which I don't think has yet been raised - apologies if it has and I missed it!

The NVQ assessment is very different to degree style assessment. As I have done both I can see it from both sides. The styles of writing required are very different, and this combined with the huge level of content can be too much for some people. I do not mean that to be patronising in any way - but everybody's brain works differently, and some are more suited to certain styles than others. After spending over a year in placement writing case logs for my portfolio I really struggled with my first final year assignment as the style is so different, and everyone on my course found the same, this is despite having written loads of degree assignments 18 months previously, so to make the transition from NVQ straight to degree I think would add a lot of stress to an already incredibly stressful situation. This may be why some uni's still insist on 'academic' qualifications as well as the NVQ. This is certainly something to consider when making the decision, maybe try to get in contact with someone already on the course, or tutors, who could show you exapmles of exam papers + answers, and lecture notes etc??

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

loopylou711 — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 13:16:27 GMT

They are trying to change it so that they don't need to sit RCVS stuff however as it stands yes they do need to do the RCVS exams and pay for them themselves aswell.

The degree is tough and i have friends who are working hard trying to become degree vet nurses. I personally think the degree is a bit of a waste of time just my opinion. I don't think for a second though that degree nurses do not work hard for their qualification. If anything i'd say they work harder. Again just my opinion!

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Tracy Windler RVN — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 13:07:36 GMT

Thanks supastar, thats cleared up a bit of confusion with some first-hand knowledge. I'm pretty sure Nottingham fees were much higher for grads when I looked on the website last week, but maybe I should check with them.

The "moving goalpost" thing happened to my friend who went to Liverpool, he was told at interview that he could do the 4 yr, fast-track course, because he had a 1st degree in animal science, but then when all his forms came through, it was for the 5 yr course, so he queried it and they back-tracked and said they had changed the rules since then!

Hmmm, part of me thinks I should really go for it, but I do still really love my job and I'm not sure how much more fulfilled I would be as a vet (after all that study!) compared to a nurse. I just feel like I really want to develop, but don't have the scope to in this career, as (there is already a thread on this subject going on atm!) I don't feel our employers really want us to develop in the same way we would like to, as we will then require paying more than they would like to!

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Anonymous — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 12:22:28 GMT

Hi everyone... as well as being an ANA/receptionist, I am also a vet student with several post-grad student friends at a few of the vet schools, so have some "inside knowledge" as it were.

Doing the vet degree as a post-grad now requires the same sort of A-level grades as an undergrad, mainly due to the competition for places, in addition to at least a 2.1 at your previous degree. The fees vary place to place. Currently Nottingham and the RVC (where I am) are the cheapest, at around £3k/year for post grad fees. The rest of the vet schools are £15-20k in tutition fees. Living fees need to be added to this, and if you have already done a degree you may not be eligible for a second student loan. Some of the schools (Cambridge I think) don't offer a reduced length post-grad option, so you may end up paying even more to go there.

Even with a vet science/biovet science/nursing degree from the same uni you are applying to, there is no guarantee of a place even if you do meet the grade requirements.

Someone (not sure who... memory of a goldfish at the moment!) mentioned a friend doing a VetSci degree who could transfer. Please get them to check with their uni that is definite. A lot of my friends were on the VetSci course, and were told this at interview and during first year, only to then have the goalposts rather significantly moved during the course. Some of them were lucky enough to get a place through the normal post grad application process, but many didn't.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Tracy Windler RVN — Sun, 10 Jan 2010 11:59:25 GMT

"Good tip, Nick, and our NVQ exams required a 65% pass rate- whereas the Degree programme now only requires 40%! Yes, thats less than HALF!! So I rate my pass as being a little bit better, personally!

Mind you, I've heard of an evil thing called negative marking in the Veterinary degree!

So you see yourself as a better nurse than a degree nurse? I started the degree, and i can say the people who pass it work bloody hard for it! I did the first year of the course and failed, so went onto NVQ. I don't think degree nurses are any better than NVQ nurses, or vice versa. But the degree is not easy!"

I think you may have misread my original thread, I said I consider MY PASS a better pass (ie at 65%) than a degree nurse pass at 40%-which is only based on maths 65 out of 100 is better than 40 out of 100! I am sure many degree nurses strive to get much more than just a pass! Never did I say anything about being a better nurse than degree nurses, what a huge sweeping statement that would be. I might as well have said "I am the best nurse in the country!!!" (BTW, this is not my opinion!)

I do agree that it seems surprising that there are some awful nurses out there, despite how difficult we all know it is to get through the course (whether degree or NVQ!!) Who is signing off the portfolios for these people?!

On the point that degree nurses still need to achieve the 65% in the RCVS exams, I don't think they do have to sit them anymore, do they? RCVS recognises most of the degree courses, they just complete portfolios in the same way as NVQ's (degree students feel free to correct me if I am wrong).

But...back to the subject matter of the thread, I have researched fees at Liverpool and Nottingham- closest uni's to me, and the fees for a grad for Vet Degree is around £19K, my friend applied after doing an animal science degree and it cost him around £70K for the whole 5 years ( they gave some stupid reason for him not being able to do the reduced 4 yr course) He graduated last year, so fees will have gone up. The realistic cost for completing a degree is a lot more than the fees you pay, your local authority will pick up the rest of the cost for your first degree, but not any subsequent ones.

PS can't seem to work out how to "quote" older threads and not just the one I'm replying to!

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

hissycat — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:21:42 GMT

Are you sure about the 20k figure for a post grad twindy? seems a hell of a lot! Its a shame because if you did the top up degree you could see if were suited to that sort of study and you would prob be much more confident then about going for the vet degree. I did science A levels, two years of the VN degree (which is a total con IMO but perhaps thats another thread), the NVQ VNQ and am now doing a human physio degree (we share a lot of our lectures with the first year med students) and I found the NVQ to be equivalent to prob the first year degree stuff. Maybe may brain is skewed having done A levels aswell but you do a lot of work at NVQ level 3, and I don't think that was easy, you also have a lot less spare time to study than then when doing a degree, so if you got through that you can prob get through anything! I must say I have never worked with an NVQ nurse and not thought they deserved their title. Perhaps i've just been lucky. I also agree that not every NVQ nurse or degree nurse could go on to do the vet course, but there are some who can, and they should fulfill their potential.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Vicky RVN — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 00:49:22 GMT

[quote user="Kimbo1985"] No offence but I don't think a VN NVQ would prepare you for doing vet medicine unless you were incredibly bright. The biochemistry side alone would be incredibly difficult if you hadn't at least got an A level in chemistry. I'm not saying don't try but we had some people on my degree who hadn't done chemistry and biology a levels and they really struggled with some of the things we covered whereas most people had a good basic knowledge on them from doing a levels. [/quote]

Totally agree! I started the degree having done national diploma, so when it came to doing biochem etc i found it VERY difficult, because 99% of it was first time learning for me, whereas a lot of the class had done a levels so it was more of a refresher for them.

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Vicky RVN — Fri, 08 Jan 2010 00:45:19 GMT

[quote user="twindy"]

[quote user="SmegSlayer"]

I tried to get into nottingham a couple of years ago. I had poor a Level result so I emailed stating I had been a nurse for 7 years. They said that should make up for my a levels but they still rejected me :-(

[/quote]

Did you get to interview stage?

Good tip, Nick, and our NVQ exams required a 65% pass rate- whereas the Degree programme now only requires 40%! Yes, thats less than HALF!! So I rate my pass as being a little bit better, personally!

Mind you, I've heard of an evil thing called negative marking in the Veterinary degree!

[/quote]

Re: From Nurse to Vet???

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 07 Jan 2010 22:51:40 GMT

[quote user="Claire BearRVN"]

[quote user="STRVN"]

[quote user="Claire BearRVN"]

I've worked with some QVN's who I don't know how they passed the NVQ to be honest.

[/quote]

Me Too Claire

[/quote]

Does concern me, and therefore doesn't suprise me that NVQ alone is not sufficient for entry onto vet med, not saying NVQ nurses aren't intelligent enough for the course, but I can see why it isn't enough on it's own.

T'is insulting to the qualification some of the NVQ nurses I've worked with.

P.S. I am an NVQ nurse myself before anyone thinks I'm slagging that route off. I'm not, just worked with some nurses who I don't know how they passed

[/quote]

I am NVQ too, and I agree with you Claire most definitely