Screaming night time puppy!!!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Saskia Quinn — Mon, 30 Nov 2009 17:28:34 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

I have a king size bed and 2 cats (new bed was my pressie to me was a bit of a tight squeeze for me and two moggies in a single bed)

New bed is still a tight squeeze - the cats seemed to have adopted a 'grow to fit' policy and I am still left clinging onto the edge of the bed

[/quote]

haha Sal!! I say the same about my children (3 of us in the bed together) and add a greyhound and my cat into the equation and sometimes Rosie lolol!!!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Kim Buckley — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 18:50:10 GMT

Awww I love them so much! My little one is a complete pain in the *** and very naughty and stupid but I love her to bits! Such a great little dog!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

paula morgan — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 16:47:13 GMT

haha Kimbo, it mustbe aterrier thing! my 2 have to have their heads on the pillow when I open my eyes in the mornin the firstthing I see is mee wee boys big brown eyes x

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Kim Buckley — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 11:20:27 GMT

My dogs both sleep downstairs on the sofa at night, unless I'm home alone and then I let them sleep in my room. My collie x springer sleeps on my floor (she takes up to much room and is to hairy!) and my border terrier x sleeps in my bed next to me with her head on my pillow! lol

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

wobbliebob — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 09:19:05 GMT

so what your all saying is i should get a bigger bed lol

and steph b i wasnt disagreeing with anyone just entering another opinion

as i keep saying if it works for her great

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:27:48 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

I have a king size bed and 2 cats (new bed was my pressie to me was a bit of a tight squeeze for me and two moggies in a single bed)

New bed is still a tight squeeze - the cats seemed to have adopted a 'grow to fit' policy and I am still left clinging onto the edge of the bed

[/quote]

lolz my Ocicat loves to head butt us in the night and we have basically been trained to lift the duvet for her when she does it. She head butts her way all the way to the end of the duvet at our ankles and snuggles down so she's nice and warm. Then she gets too hot and comes on top and becomes the bed stone that hogs all of the duvet!!! lol bless her it's endearing at this point i think. annoying but I think we would surely miss it.

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

loopylou711 — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:24:23 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

I have a king size bed and 2 cats (new bed was my pressie to me was a bit of a tight squeeze for me and two moggies in a single bed)

New bed is still a tight squeeze - the cats seemed to have adopted a 'grow to fit' policy and I am still left clinging onto the edge of the bed

[/quote]

haha!! Cats are funny but it is so true! If i move my feet have lost my space!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Sal the 1st — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:22:48 GMT

I have a king size bed and 2 cats (new bed was my pressie to me was a bit of a tight squeeze for me and two moggies in a single bed)

New bed is still a tight squeeze - the cats seemed to have adopted a 'grow to fit' policy and I am still left clinging onto the edge of the bed

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

loopylou711 — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:15:16 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]

[quote user="scotlass"]

my 2 border terriers go to bed before we do, our bed!!!! I love cuddling up to them, not so sure my hubby would agree with me though! x

[/quote]

The fact I am now a single parent to my children means all 3 of us share a king size bed, their feet only reach about 1/4 way down the bed, so that leaves loads of room for Rosie - German SH Pointer and Saskia - Greyhound, if they feel like jumping up during night!!!!

No complaints from me!! I love their body heat on these cold nights lol!!

[/quote]

I love m kitties! And they go to bed when we do. However they ALWAYS sleep on my side in a row! Luka gets the cornor Niamh next to him then Poppy! So i really only get a tin bit of the bed booo!!!

Saying that though nice to feel so loved hehe

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:13:49 GMT

[quote user="wobbliebob ,"]

but then you may always have to have her in your room, which is fine when your young free and single but what about when you have a partner or baby etc.

if it suties your life style then go for it but just think to the future a little bit

[/quote]

[quote user="wobbliebob ,"]

wasnt implying there was anything wrong with your advice you dont need to justify yourself to me

thats why i said if it works for her go for it

[/quote]

erm, I also got the impression that you didn't agree with her advice and got the wrong impression of what she was suggesting. I read her suggestion as starting out in close quarters and moving away with time when the pup settled. Which would eventually give the pup time to deal with the separation and releave any stress of separation anxiety and cope with it over time to potentially help him self sooth in future when left alone and not call out. Not that she would always have the pup in her room, which would be irrelevant for partners and such in future.

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Anonymous — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:05:39 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

I would bring her up and settle her down in your bedroom. The wee bairn is going through enough separation at the moment. She's crying because she has unmet needs. Not meeting the need may/will result in her not crying eventually. But does she stop crying because she has 'got used to the situation/likes being on her own' or does she stop crying because she has learnt that crying doesn't work as a means of gaining access to social contact. These have two different emotional outcomes. I definitely wouldn't be reprimanding the pup. She may a) learn to fear you in some circumstances, and/or b) find the reprimand rewarding - she is crying because she feels lonely - so, you appearing in response to her crying may be rewarding to her even if you are telling her off.

She has been seperated from her parent(s) and siblings and that is traumatic enough in itself. The use of DAP is a great idea and definitely won't do any harm. Get her used to being in a crate/pen overnight and then gradually move the crate further away from your bed each night, then out of the bedroom, then down stairs, etc. Although it is important that dogs learn to cope with being on their own it isn't necessary to flood them with the experience of isolation right from day one of adoption. Nor does it mean that you have spoilt the dog and it will have to sleep in your room for the rest of its life. I would favour a much more gradual process of adaption. We wouldn't start of by teaching a dog to be on its own for 8hrs/day by just leaving it for 8 hours and expecting it to cope but we commonly do this with puppies overnight.

If you think about the basic make up of any animal (us included) you can break down seperation-training into various components based on the 5 senses: touch/hearing/sight/smell/taste. Most (all?) of these are involved in the process of social company so, when reversing this (teaching them to be on their own), you can very gradually teach a dog to accept being on its own, by gradually removing access to a human by one of the senses, then build in another, etc. E.g. seperation from taste/touch - in a crate just far enough away from the owner to not be able to make contact, if the dog accepts this easily and shows no signs of destress, then start eliminating the other sense-access to the owner. That way you move more slowly and then dog is less likely to demonstrate distress. If the dog does show distress which doesn't resolve very quickly (e.g. a few cries and then settles down to go to sleep) then the process is going to quickly for that dog. Some animals can cope with elimination of access by all 5 senses and for a long period of time but lots cannot. I think we should give the benefit of the doubt in the direct of the animal that won't cope and start small, build big (big being total elimination of access for a long period of time which is effectively overnight separation) as this is less likely to have a damaging effect on the emotional state of the animal - either in the short term (at the time it happens) or in the longterm (how it affects the animal's ability to cope with the environment in the future). A little bit of stress is a good thing and benefits the dog's copability in the long run, but too much stress has a damaging effect.

Just my thoughts though as goes contrary to most advice that I have seen/heard. However, as it has not been researched (to my knowledge) any advice out there is based on experience which may/may not take into account the emotional needs of the dog. I do think though that it is an under-addressed part of puppy rearing and it really isn't that long ago that best practice was the same for a crying baby - leave it to cry and don't spoil it by giving into its demands. Now, if you read books on attachment theory and maladjusted children not meeting a baby/infant's needs is associated with damage to the developing psyche.

[/quote]

I echo the crate training in close quarters.

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

LoveCat — Sat, 28 Nov 2009 00:01:42 GMT

My puppy is tiny - shih tzu crossed with pomeranian so there would be plenty of room in the bed but my other concern is that she can't hold on for a pee for very long!!

I don't want any nasty suprises in the middle of the night!!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Saskia Quinn — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:00:05 GMT

[quote user="scotlass"]

my 2 border terriers go to bed before we do, our bed!!!! I love cuddling up to them, not so sure my hubby would agree with me though! x

[/quote]

No complaints from me!! I love their body heat on these cold nights lol!!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

paula morgan — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:49:22 GMT

haha, I used to have 2 Rotties so I know how that feels

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

wobbliebob — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:45:45 GMT

good when you have something small, mine takes the entire bed up lol, thats why he doesnt get to be on it .

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

paula morgan — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:42:44 GMT

my 2 border terriers go to bed before we do, our bed!!!! I love cuddling up to them, not so sure my hubby would agree with me though! x

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

wobbliebob — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:34:23 GMT

wasnt implying there was anything wrong with your advice you dont need to justify yourself to me

thats why i said if it works for her go for it

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Louise B — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:03:44 GMT

[quote user="wobbliebob ,"]

but then you may always have to have her in your room, which is fine when your young free and single but what about when you have a partner or baby etc.

if it suties your life style then go for it but just think to the future a little bit

[/quote]

Hi Wobbliebob - that's not the case at all but I agree with you that you need to think for the future. If Lovecat just let the dog sleep in her room and never tried to teach it to be alone I would agree with you but that's not the case or the advice that I am giving.

Its just a case of gradually getting the puppy used to being on its own. This was one of the arguments touted about as a reason to leave babies crying - they need to get used to their parents being constantly available - we now live in an age were, thankfully, people don't take such an all or nothing approach to parenting their child and we don't see children that cannot cope alone as a consequence. In fact, from what I have read, being available to meet your baby/infant's early/primative needs leads to a more secure, well-adjusted child/adult. Different species but the learning theory/basic needs are the same.

If it was inappropriate for the puppy to have its needs met because it would always expect this as an adult then we could make a list of things that puppies generally get as young puppies but which it doesn't get in the future. 1st on that list would be number of meals/day. Think about how many meals a pup gets from its dam over 24 hours and how many meals we give it when we first adopt. Nobody sensible gets a pup of 8 weeks and then feeds it once a day. Yet by the time it is an adult the number of meals/day it has are dropped down to 1 - 2 day. 2nd on the list, would be supplementary heat for neonates. We think nothing about meeting the thermal-requirements of neonates - but we don't extrapolate from that that the dog will be ruined in adulthood and will always need a hottie. The points I am making are:

- Make the change gradual

- Make the change within the copability of the pup (could an 8 week old pup cope with 1 one big meal/day?)

- Meet the basic emotional needs of the animal at that stage in its life

I think that, in general, we are great at meeting the physiological needs of pets but not so good at meeting/thinking through the emotional needs of the pet. This is a pity as they are just as important to having a happy healthy animal.

As somebody that has an adult dog with severe separation-related problems (I did not have him as a puppy but acquired him as a much older rescue dog with a known history of problems) I used this same process (5 senses) to get him used to being left alone in the car as he couldn't be left alone for even 5 minutes without destruction occuring. I can now leave him in the car for up to 8hours any he is happy to sleep in his crate with his companion (the crate is the size of the whole of the back of the car) (not a regular occurance!) so it can/does work as an approach to teaching dogs to accept separation. I haven't cracked the problem elsewhere but that is due to a lack of time/effort/inclination (I live in a rented property and, with a dog that did £1500 worth of damage in 4hrs, I don't take the chance for obviosu reasons).

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

wobbliebob — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:48:04 GMT

but then you may always have to have her in your room, which is fine when your young free and single but what about when you have a partner or baby etc.

if it suties your life style then go for it but just think to the future a little bit

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

LoveCat — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 18:40:25 GMT

Thanks POHM - the idea of the 5 senses is a great one. From her position in her pen she cant see, hear, smell, touch or taste me! If I move the pen into my room she will be able to hear, see and smell me so hopefully that will make her feel better. I'll give everything a go and hope for the best!

Many thanks everyone - it's really appreciated. She is sooo adorable but we really do need a good nights sleep! xx

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

LoveCat — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:39:49 GMT

[quote user="lolly"]Ignoring didn't work for me as I was living with my sister at the time and things are always louder in the middle of the night so believe me leaving him was sooo not an option![/quote]

So what did you do Lolly? Did you go and comfort him and then put him back to bed? And did he get the hang of it eventually?

I'm going to get a DAP plug in going along with the spray and will get her a hot water bottle and ticking clock - maybe in one of my tee shirts. I'll give that a go tonight as I've got no work tomorrow - hurrah! But if that does not do the trick I think I'm going to move the pen into my room to see if that makes it easier for her.

Thanks for all the suggestions guys - any more info will also be gratefully received!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Louise B — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:25:56 GMT

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Kathryn Welsh — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:17:22 GMT

Only problem with the DAP spray is it won't last the whole night so seriously suggest the plug in!!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

lolly — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:00:39 GMT

Try using a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel with the ticking clock (or one of those heat pads that go in the microwave)

I found this really worked with my puppy with the ticking clock (I put it under a towel) is supposed to feel like the mum's heatbeat and the heat pad being her warmth. Ignoring didn't work for me as I was living with my sister at the time and things are always louder in the middle of the night so believe me leaving him was sooo not an option!

Re: Screaming night time puppy!!!

Rachel Jayne — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 16:54:48 GMT

Aww bless....

If you found the DAP spray worked well, you could consider trying Dorwest Scullcap & Valerian compound, blot some drops on her bedding.....

It's a calming thing, is very useful when used in epileptic patients to keep them calm, we used to use it a lot in my old practice dotted around the kennel on bedding/paper of anxious patients.