human painkillers

Re: human painkillers

Fiona Leathers — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 11:37:59 GMT

Used to work with a vet, who when on call & couldn't be arsed with going out (read into that - was at pub) - he used to tell all clients give it half apsirin / parcetamol (delete as per species) and phone me in the morning.

Lovely chap!

Re: human painkillers

Heather Christie — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:28:46 GMT

PMPL @ Caro. Wouldn't want to get sued before i'm even qualified.

Re: human painkillers

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:25:38 GMT

This disclaimer was brought to you by VN advertising and associates

Re: human painkillers

Heather Christie — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 21:22:27 GMT

My boyfriends mum has given her dog (Yorkshire Terrier) a children's paracetamol suspension (is it Calpol?) with no ill effects as far as i can tell. She said it was only what the vet would've used. Whether this was because the vet sanctioned it's use or because she just assumed, i don't know.

Disclaimer:

I am not a qualified member of the veterinary profession, nor am i being advised by one. This is merely a personal story and should not be misconstrued as a reccomendation to use this, or any other drug intended for human use. All animals are individuals and if you have any concerns you should consult a veterinary surgeon. Of course, if you have any common sense then you would know this already.

Re: human painkillers

Nick Shackleton — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:25:03 GMT

BTW Pardale-V contains paracetamol and codine and is on our shelves at work!

Re: human painkillers

Nick Shackleton — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:12:31 GMT

Hey guys

Have details of paracetamol usage IV so if anyone wants the details please private message me.

cheers

Re: human painkillers

Sal the 1st — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:56:53 GMT

I have mentioned it before - I think on the old site a gnetleman that used to take the dogs vivitonin. We didnt twig till he came in for a repeat Rx for the dog which had died a month or so previous and then he told us

Re: human painkillers

Saskia Quinn — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:29:34 GMT

OMG thats shocking ST!! Did you hear how the dog reacted or if it reacted?

I have known an elderly client to have taken phenobarbitone belonging to the dog!!

Re: human painkillers

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:26:09 GMT

I will give you a good one on that, Today one of our vets was telling us that one of her clients had decided to give her cat ,her own heart meds because of something the vet had said in regards to her hyperthyroidism and high blood pressure. The vet only found out because the women told the receptionist what she as doing!!

Re: human painkillers

Kim Buckley — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:23:01 GMT

People are always going to think it is fine to give their pets human medication. A friend of mine has an elderly terrier who is overall very healthy and very good for his age but he occasionally has trouble with his back. He's not insured and so hasn't had it investigated.

He asked me to pop in and feed him one night as a favour and I found a note saying to give him a paracetemol if I feel he needs it!! I was soon on the phone to him giving him stern words and told him to go to the vet and get something which he has since done.

Makes you wonder how many other people are giving their animals human medication without being advised by a vet!

Re: human painkillers

Vicky RVN — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:01:20 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

it is a shame tho if this prevents information being available in cases where it is genuinely needed. I remember passing on the tramadol info to Paula and I in turn found out about it from another member on this site for a case in the practice where I was working at the time.

[/quote]

Indeed, yes, it is thanks to Sal that I became aware of Tramadol, educated my vet on it and Rosie was prescribed it.

WITHOUT that input from Sal, my guess is that Rosie would be long gone by now due to severe oesteoarthritis. So to Sal, and this forum, I will always be grateful.

I am a QVN and damn proud of it, I have worked hard to get where I am today. Quite frankly, for it to be said that a QVN should not come on to a site, dedicated solely to members of the veterinary profession and get information/advice relating to our work is absolutely ludricous!

This isnt a forum for the general public! It isnt called vetnurse.co.uk just so any joe public can join - it was named that for a reason!!

Certain member/s should realise that before they invite anyone not associated with veterinary to join - FACT!

[/quote]

Re: human painkillers

Saskia Quinn — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:34:55 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

[/quote]

Indeed, yes, it is thanks to Sal that I became aware of Tramadol, educated my vet on it and Rosie was prescribed it.

WITHOUT that input from Sal, my guess is that Rosie would be long gone by now due to severe oesteoarthritis. So to Sal, and this forum, I will always be grateful.

This isnt a forum for the general public! It isnt called vetnurse.co.uk just so any joe public can join - it was named that for a reason!!

Certain member/s should realise that before they invite anyone not associated with veterinary to join - FACT!

Re: human painkillers

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:55:45 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]And, human meds that awork in animals could have the dose rate made clearly available - for example on a free access website endorsed by an animal welfare charity - so that we can improve the ability of owners to treat their animals without needing to reach for the vet everytime their animal stubs its toes because only the vet knows what painkiller to give and how much to give.[/quote]

Would that not be then going against the cascade? Must given vet product for that indication/species etc etc etc

I think a lot of owners like to pick a diagnosis and then stick to it, regardless of what other clinical symptoms there are. I am a member of a forum for the rescue I got my pooch from, and a lot of the owners on there are advising each other on "alternative" drug/treatment regimes to avoid going to the vets with no real idea of the diagnosis or cause of the symptoms! It can be a scary world on the internet, and I think with meds especially there needs to be the input of someone who has the experience and training to know what to recommend and is able to reach a diagnosis. Having animal dose rates for 'human' medications available online might just make this worse, and result in a lot of animals being mis-diagnosed by their owners, without there ever being the input of a vet/nurse.

My partner works in a "human" pharmacy, and has had several people coming in to buy medications for their dogs without seeking vet advice beforehand. One was a oldish CKCS with a cough which had been going on for 3 months and the owner wanted cough medication because "she had read on the internet about kennel cough" he sent her off to the vets!

Re: human painkillers

Louise B — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:37:28 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

I seem to remember hearing about a certain member from this forum that was kicked off a public forum for telling someone how much to dose a dog of a drug l believe it wasn't actually on as a stopgap. And the person dispensing advice was not even a student or qualified.

[/quote]

I seem to recall that too!

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]With ref. to ooh l know for a fact that l and those who l work with were l am are always trying to tell people wait till the morning. However this is the days of 24hr everything and clients want it NOW.
[/quote]

Absolutely. But how many of us told people to wait until the morning because X was limping but weight-bearing. The pain mattered to X. And the owner might have had the means to reduce the pain in their cupboard at home. Is it so bad to want to reduce pain now - but also not have to pay £250 for the privilege when the drug that would do the trick already resides in their cupboard?

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

The most used books at the vets are the drugs books and if they with their knowledge have well thumbed formularys how exactly would the mop etc cope?

[/quote]

Very well probably given the level of info they have ready access to inorder to decide whether to take a painkiller/anti-cough meds for themselves or dose their kids. Deny them this info and, yes, they will probably cope badly. Hide a new grads formulary and he/she will also f*ck up on the most basic dosing regime. Give people the tools to do the job and most will cope okay. Giving a painkiller is not rocket-science.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]If drugs were that simple then vets wouldn't need to go and do all their years at uni to become what they are. [/quote]

No - drugs aren't simple. But we do know enough that things like carprofen/metacam could become over the counter drugs. And, human meds that awork in animals could have the dose rate made clearly available - for example on a free access website endorsed by an animal welfare charity - so that we can improve the ability of owners to treat their animals without needing to reach for the vet everytime their animal stubs its toes because only the vet knows what painkiller to give and how much to give.

Re: human painkillers

Erica Huggins — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:35:49 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

Erica l was tongue in cheek about certain drugs like l say yes we will give advice it is for certain ones with certain vets that we are limited.

As for benylin l avoid that big time. I had a spoonful once knocked me out for almost 24hrs drugs and me have a lot of bad reactions

[/quote]

dito

Re: human painkillers

Caro Laithwaite VN — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:20:13 GMT

Erica l was tongue in cheek about certain drugs like l say yes we will give advice it is for certain ones with certain vets that we are limited.

As for benylin l avoid that big time. I had a spoonful once knocked me out for almost 24hrs drugs and me have a lot of bad reactions

Re: human painkillers

Erica Huggins — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:54:12 GMT

(Fido might have kennel cough and will be hacking his brains out and since they have cough syrup/night nurse in the house hey screw ringing the vet and spending money give him some!! )

Lol you can use benyln though! lol. works a treat.! Arrh im not even an SQP! lol. I think it would be a shame if we couldn't disscuss meds and treatments on here. If someone unqualified makes a decision to prescribe drugs or give info to clients when then are not acting on behalf (under the direction of the acting Vet) then they are 1. Not a very good nurse. 2. Stupid and neglectful 3. **********.

I often attend CPD as will want to disscuss it with others. That how we learn! I know how to spey a dog and often describe the procedure to owners, dose not mean they are going to start speying their own dog.

Re: human painkillers

Caro Laithwaite VN — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:17:32 GMT

With ref. to ooh l know for a fact that l and those who l work with were l am are always trying to tell people wait till the morning. However this is the days of 24hr everything and clients want it NOW.
We will pass on info about doses if the vet clears it and we generally have a vet hanging around someplace handy to grab... bit like a hanky for a runny nose. Or we ring the clients back. The problem is as stated that they are worried about being sued if there is an adverse reaction on a human drug so a lot won't if it is a human drug. There is certain things that they are happy to pass on though. (don't worry l won't say here after all better not give away protected info!!)
If the animal is on medication already then they are a lot happier to sort it out, especially things like epileptics but also other reasons to help avoid it coming in.

If drugs were that simple then vets wouldn't need to go and do all their years at uni to become what they are. The thought of the general public getting the drugs over the counter is scary as when the problems hit they will self dose until the problem has escalated and then.. A) scream blue murder over vets fees (as they do now with fleas) B) blame the vets for the animals death when they are to blame for self dosing.

Human drugs are based on up kids and adults and easy to understand. And any queries just ask the chemist. If you are on medication just take in a copy of the script and the pharmacist can help.
How do you propose to do animals species, weights, ages, health problems known/newly discovered, on other drugs and interactions. Pharmacists do not know anything about animals and when they do dispense advice it is from a background of no knowledge.
If you contact the vet they would be worried about all the problems stated, understandably wouldn't want to treat a sick animal over the phone and are called protectionaist.

What is frustrating is when you say get in here now we have to see you and they decide not to bother. From bloats to severe dog attacks to heart failure etc etc The amount of animals that suffer is scary. These are the people that would self dose and if the cruelty problems are bad now... baby they would go to the sun and back!
Say no we do not need to see you see your own vet tomorrow, it is only anals or ..... these ones turn up.And are a good bet for the clients that would not self medicate as they are worried about their pets health.

Keeping in again given the choice send it home but a lot of people prefer it x-rayed and worked up straight away even if told we are relativly happy it is just a sprain. They are worried so animals are kept in and done overnight.

So ask yourself, if you are a vet and your livelyhood and reputation was on the line would you be quite happy to tell the owner to give x/y/z knowing nothing about the patient except what the owner has said when half the time they leave out info as they are
A) embaressed B) ignorant of the significance C) Do not feel it is anything to do with the vet D) Forget

I doubt you would do it.

The most used books at the vets are the drugs books and if they with their knowledge have well thumbed formularys how exactly would the mop etc cope?

Re: human painkillers

Louise B — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:53:08 GMT

[quote user="StephB"]

Yes but all of those bottles in the pharmacy and grocery stores have the dosage suggestions on them for human use. They don't list the recommended doses for pet use. I agree with you to an extent, but there are a lot of idiot pet owners out there that would when given an inch would take a mile. Telling them it's alright to use paracetamol for Fido for aches and pains may lead them to believe they can use anything from their med cabinet for Fido; Ibuprofen, Acetaminophen, sudophedrine, etc... Fido might have kennel cough and will be hacking his brains out and since they have cough syrup/night nurse in the house hey screw ringing the vet and spending money give him some!!

Most vets when you ring them will happily give advice over the phone to use something at home if they think that will do the job. but a lot will not because they like to see the animal and know what they are working with, the client could be missing key information to help the vet or QVN make the right decision, a receptionist or student nurse might not pick up on that and really shouldn't be encouraged to suggest details to clients off hand.

[/quote]

And providing some way in which people can obtain the doses needed to effectively dose their pet would ameliorate that. The second concern - 'give an inch, take a mile' - could we not say the same for humans? Give them enough info the know that taking asprin is good, and X is the dose rate, is there not always the concern that the 'idiot human doser' might think X dose hasn't work, I'll just take one more...? I think we have to give pet owners as much credit as we give them to dose themselves or their children. If the law has no problem with the latter, then why should we find ways to prevent the former? Yes, there will always be pets that suffer as a consequence of 'owners making mistakes' but how many more suffer as a consequence of them not knowing what to dose the animal with and how much?

Many vets do't for the reasons stated there. And I can see why as they open themselves up to litigation if something goes wrong. That is different though from owners being able to access generic advice/doses, etc rather than being told by X vet over the phone that they should give Y to their animal. No different to buying a box of pain killers over the counter and reading the insert for directions.

[quote user="StephB"]

I think it would be great if the meds that were safe for pet use and human use had both doses, but surely there must be a reason that they don't? If not maybe it's something we should pursue to have change.

[/quote]

I personally think it has more to do with protecting the livelihood of vets/vet nurses then the welfare of animals although I can see the various arguments for/against.

How many nurses man the phones OOHs and therefore cannot give the client advice on what drug to use/how much, etc? Are they going to wake the vet to ask him/her to advise the client? One clear argument here is that the client should be in some way paying for the veterinary practice's advice but, with a little less protectionism and a little more open access to info, the informed client could manage by not contacting the vet anyway!

Re: human painkillers

Anonymous — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:21:50 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

Isn't this needless suffering when the means to reduce that suffering lies in the client's own cupboard at home and all they need inorder to know whether it is safe to give that product (or, at least, make a reasonably well-informed decision as to this) is: dose/species safe in/contraindications, etc?

[/quote]

Our own health service/doctors trust us enough to make these decisions when it comes to medicating ourselves/our children so, with a small amount of education (equivalent to that we need to treat ourselves reasonably safely in the case of a cold, headache, etc), why not our pets?

[/quote]

Re: human painkillers

Louise B — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:53:54 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

[/quote]

Re: human painkillers

Louise B — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:33:52 GMT

Just to add a bit more....

I actually think a case could be made for discussing the drug dosages as a way of beneficially helping the public. How many animals suffer needlessly overnight/all weekend because they are in pain/discomfort but the owner cannot/will not pay the fees an OOHs provider pays but the means to reduce that pain lies sittting in the owner's own cupboard and, in most cases, it would be safe to use these products - given just a small amount of education - i.e. dose rate/species safe to use in/contraindications, etc. With the fees most (all?) emergency clinics charging clients £90 - 160 just to be seen. Then you have the charge for the drugs which will usually be just enough to tied the animal over until it can be seen at its regular vet practice (i.e. overnight or sat/sun), then the owner will incur another consultation fee the next day/monday to have a further check over and further pain relief prescribed. It is not unfeasible that a sprained leg in a dog could cost the owner £250 - just in consult fees and painrelief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am not going to comment on the ethics of this but merely to point out that many owners cannot or will not pay this and, therefore, the animal suffers. Isn't this needless suffering when the means to reduce that suffering lies in the client's own cupboard at home and all they need inorder to know whether it is safe to give that product (or, at least, make a reasonably well-informed decision as to this) is: dose/species safe in/contraindications, etc?

Re: human painkillers

Louise B — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:23:09 GMT

In fact, I don't see why we cannot describe deviations from the 'accepted (published)' regimes - preferably also stating why the clinician uses this dose, the risks, benefits, etc. Discussing a drug dosage is not synonymous with recommending its use in a particular patient (which is, I believe, the bit that would get us into trouble as we would then be 'treating' X patient).

Re: human painkillers

Louise B — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 12:14:39 GMT

I do not think it is actually a problem to discuss drug dosages provided we are describing dosages that are publicly knowable (i.e. can be found on public websites, in books that have been published and are available for purchase by anyone). This is a professional site for nurses to discuss things with nurses. Yes - the public could gain access but they can also pick up a book and find out the same info.

Re: human painkillers

albatross — Mon, 16 Nov 2009 11:25:44 GMT

If people have experience of a particular drug being used, whether it be personal or from work, I can't see that mentioning its name and the species it was used for is a problem.
There's no mention (unless your own animals) of names so it's not breakg confidentiality, and there's no reason to give doses as every animal and the conditions it is prescribed for are different, and so should always be prescribed by a vet.
It is certainly useful to know about different drugs - for instance through another forum I learnt of a better (in terms of less side-effects) antibiotic for chinchillas, as the vet ours go to always gave one particular type (after changing years ago from one which had bad side effects then). It's then down to discussion and research to determine whether that particular drug is useful for the animal in question.