Euthanasia

Re: Euthanasia

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:49:54 GMT

I had to put my own cat to sleep in Tenerife. Vet had refused to unblock bladder said not full enough, he started to fit in the middle of the night. There was a german vet student we had put at a friends flat over from ours l had her come over to raise a vein.

She asked/begged me not to l said ok l would sedate him but one more fit and l put him down. Within 15mins he had fitted and despite her protests l made her raise a vein and l PTSd.Now l would know what to do but then l just knew that fitting meant he would die as he did not have the support to pull him through. And there was no night vets open not that l would have trusted them anyhow.

I then had to put his body into the dustbin. She went back to bed. I climbed into bed and burst into tears and woke hub up. I ended up feeling worse for trying to protect him from what was going on as he was so upset at all l had been through trying not to upset him and keep him protected.

Re: Euthanasia

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:23:04 GMT

I was at my mum's having family pet PTs'd and vet knew I was a VN. Asked me to raise vein, which I have to admit was rather shaky at doing. Anyway, all went fine and then he brought in a bag black bag from the car!

I personally think this is totally unprofessional! I had to go outta the room

Re: Euthanasia

Phrin Vernon RVN — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:19:20 GMT

[quote user="Kim Blowing RVN"]

Also had a vet who put the dog in the bag in front of the owner!!! Was awful!!

[/quote]

I've had that too - home visit - dog into the bag head first, and then slung over the vets shoulder

Re: Euthanasia

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 16:52:35 GMT

We were short staffed the other night and l was asked to help with a pts. This is the first owner present one since B passed.

l have done them and assisted on non owner present pretty much straight through. I never asked not to assist but have to say l have been thankful l wasn't asked to. Not the best to get back involved with as 3 owners all extremly emotional, l held it together till the end and then smart marched out to seperat room composed myself and went back to work.

Re: Euthanasia

Sal the 1st — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 18:52:40 GMT

[quote user="Dawn Seabrook"]

I have done quiet a lot of PTS's mainly because our vets are so busy and us VN's often have more time to spend with the owner explaining the process and taking time and care to perform the euthenasia in a compasionate way. I think that if for any reason you are unhappy with doing it you should be able to refuse. I would also recomend going on a good bereavment course I did one last year and found it really helped me deal with emotional owners without feeling out of my depth.

[/quote]

working for a number of charities I have had to carry out quite a few euthanasias - never nice taking a life, but sometimes it has to be done. I would agree that a good bereavement course can be very useful in both knowing what to say when talking the owner through things and also getting your own head round it.

Re: Euthanasia

Kim Buckley — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 16:54:16 GMT

[quote user="littlehays"]

[quote user="Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA"]

[quote user="Kim Blowing RVN"]Also had a vet who put the dog in the bag in front of the owner!!! Was awful!! [/quote]

I had that once...... not nice and the vet got the sharp end of my tongue when we were alone afterwards!

[/quote]

that's absolutely awful!! how could they possibly have thought that would be okay?!

[/quote]

It was awful! It was a home visit so I had taken along a nice zip up bag that we had for that very reason but nope he didn't want to use it. Was my boss so felt I couldn't really say anything. If it had been anyone else then I would have!

Re: Euthanasia

littlehays — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:34:09 GMT

[quote user="Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA"]

[quote user="Kim Blowing RVN"]Also had a vet who put the dog in the bag in front of the owner!!! Was awful!! [/quote]

I had that once...... not nice and the vet got the sharp end of my tongue when we were alone afterwards!

[/quote]

that's absolutely awful!! how could they possibly have thought that would be okay?!

Re: Euthanasia

Dawn Seabrook — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:41:00 GMT

Re: Euthanasia

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:36:46 GMT

[quote user="Kim Blowing RVN"]Also had a vet who put the dog in the bag in front of the owner!!! Was awful!! [/quote]

I had that once...... not nice and the vet got the sharp end of my tongue when we were alone afterwards!

Re: Euthanasia

Kim Buckley — Wed, 01 Sep 2010 09:09:19 GMT

I would have no problem at all being asked to perform a pts. I have done a few in the past and I actually found it better than just assisting the vet because I have been able to explain everything properly to the owner and have a bit of tact.

The amount of times I have cringed at vets who don't explain that their animal may gasp, twitch etc and then seen them jump back in horror when this has happened. Also had a vet who put the dog in the bag in front of the owner!!! Was awful!!

Re: Euthanasia

Phrin Vernon RVN — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:50:16 GMT

*wrt = with respect to

Re: Euthanasia

Phrin Vernon RVN — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:49:17 GMT

I would prefer the nurses

A vet with a good bedside manner wrt euthanasia, is worth their weight in gold

Re: Euthanasia

Saskia Quinn — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:41:16 GMT

[quote user="Celine"]

Mmm yes of course Caro but I was wondering if the refusal was moral (ie "I do't feel its right to do this") as opposed to emotional ("I've been nursing this dog since he was a puppy and I just can't face doing this as it's so sad") and the relative legalities.

Neither is a nice situation

[/quote]

Whilst I agree that neither is a situation we want to find ourselves in, I am thinking of the situation as a vet carrying out a procedure in haste, in a rush to get to the next procedure, therefore wanting it over now so he/she can get on, versus 2 nurses with one holding and reassuring the animal, while the other nurse gently places the iv catheter followed by the euthatal - I would pray for the nurse as opposed to the rushing vet to carry out the procedure.

Just think, if it were your own animal - what would you prefer??

Re: Euthanasia

Celine — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 20:18:22 GMT

Neither is a nice situation

Re: Euthanasia

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:10:16 GMT

As far as l know you have a right on moral grounds. Can always ring bvna helpline though or even rcvs disciplinary guy (forgotten his name)

Re: Euthanasia

Celine — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:50:18 GMT

Sorry, I am (still) confused...

I think I understand that you didnt want to euth the dog because you were emotionally attached? And maybe worried that in your upset state you might not get the vein?

Do you feel that you wouldn't have been permitted by the vet to place a catheter? In which case, I completely understand your reluctance to do it. And I think you did the right thing for you in this situation. Maybe you would like to think this over some more, and consider how you might react if you are placed in a similar situation again. Do you think you would prefer to do the dreaded deed yourself, when you know you will handle the job with care and sensitivity, or leave it to the vet again, who may again treat it as an inconvenient thing to get out of the way before lunch?

Don't forget, vets aren't demi-gods! Frankly, any monkey can give an IV injection after practising a couple of times, and if you have been in practice that long then I am sure you are more than capable. Have faith in your own abilities

I think it sounds like you handled the situation at the time well and professionally, and maybe you could speak to the vet (maybe via the p. manager?) and explain that you felt uncomfortable with the directive from the vet and that as a professional you are within your rights to refuse to undertake a task you are not comfortable with.

***CAVEAT*** I am not entirely sure of the legalities of refusing to follow a VS's directive purely because it is upsetting to you - I am sure you are allowed to do so because you feel it is inapproriate ie: a convenience euthanasia etc, but don't know about the other, did you ask the RCVS about this? As otherwise this MAY be seen as insubordination and could be grounds for disciplinary action. What role does the VS have in the practice ie Is he senior / partner or something? Who do you directly answer to?

Anyone on here know how it works for our human nursing friends? What rights do they have to refuse a doctors directive? Would be v interesting I think...

Cxx

Re: Euthanasia

pooplet the1st — Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:53:52 GMT

No, im saying that no compassion was shown whilst injection was taking place and post euth from the vet. I did not realise that this would have been the case as it is an extreeme circumstance.

Re: Euthanasia

Vicky RVN — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 19:28:50 GMT

I was wondering the same Sal. Personally (once i'm RVN) if it were between a VS showing no compassion and me then i'd rather do it. As much as it would upset me. And in that case i'd put a catheter in whether the VS liked it or not, because if i were doing it it would be my choice. But that's just how i feel

Re: Euthanasia

Sal the 1st — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:48:14 GMT

I am struggling with this

are you saying that you are capable but dont want to? or are you saying that you feel a vs could do the job better?

maybe if the vs seemingly showed a lack of compassion in this dogs demise it would have been better you did it yourself.

Re: Euthanasia

pooplet the1st — Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:05:59 GMT

H.I. sorry that im responding to a fairly old topic. However I have soething that I wanted to write on here and get off my chest and this forum seems the best one to use!

I have had an issue in my practice twice recently where the nurses have been asked to euthanase dogs. The first time my nurse collegue and I didnt fee comfortable doing so, as although the dog had cancer, he was fairly young and bouncy. Said VS seemed eventually ok at us not wanting to do so. Then this week same said VS requested that I euth a geriatric almost blind dog. I explined that I didnt feel comfortable doing so, due to the emotional side of things. I was also worried that in such a patient trying to located and successfully injected in to the vein first time might not be possible (said VS does not like the use of IV cathethers for IV injections!) anyway, the VS basically hit the roof. Even tho' I had managed to locate another VN who has performed this task before, begrudgingly said she would do the euth. The VS made me basically feel like shit as I should in his words 'I should do what he tells me'.

Now obviously Ii know that if the VS didnt feel that I had the competence to carry out such a task then he would of asked. Having been nursing for 9 years, I have never been spoken to in such a way and put into such an awkward position. I was shaking and on the verge of tears. I was proud of myself for keeping my cool, and telling the VS that I didnt want to argue about it!

I have subsequently phoned the RVCS who have said that legally, yes, RVN are allowed under VS diections to euth nimals. However if you as a RVN for whatever reason are not comfortable in doing so, then you ae within your rights to refuse to so . Also I checked re dogs wardens etc (as said VS was bleating on about them doing it if he asks them to) and again they are allowed, situation dependant, under the VS direction and if the feel comfortable doing so.

The poor dog was euthed by the VS in the end, but it was not a pleasent euth for it. There was no kind words, just a needle shoved in and shoved out before I could blink. Also, no my practice manager/principle is not going to do anything about this situation. They never do when it comes to this particular VS unfortunatly.

Re: Euthanasia

Freckle — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 23:25:35 GMT

i read the guide to PC for VNs through the other night on line - sure it mentioned euth as being something a lay person can do - link to guide, and off to trawl through it!!

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/files/1361638/FileName/vnguide_08.pdf

Re: Euthanasia

Fiona Leathers — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 20:36:59 GMT

Can't find mine either - there must be goblins out there stealing G to PC!!

Re: Euthanasia

wobbliebob — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:26:19 GMT

thats what i though cant find me book though

Re: Euthanasia

Fiona Leathers — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 18:24:21 GMT

I think this is an act that anyone can do, which is why SSPCA / RSPCA inspectors can do it. I'm off to check our guide to professional conduct!