Green needles...

Re: Green needles...

Freckle — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:11:47 GMT

[quote user="Kimbo1985"]

[quote user="Freckle"]

[quote user="Kimbo1985"]

Just get a nurse in there to take the blood before the vet does. Problem sorted

[/quote]

The vets at my place take bloods in front of clients, usually at the end of a consult, but still in consult room - the number of times I have wanted to shooo the vet away, and let us nurses get on with the b/s in an efficient manner, without crappy blue needle cephalic clotty samples, and repeated blown veins, and patients and clients getting increasingly more stressed...

agghhhh!!!! immanent rantage!

[/quote]

Most of our blood samples are taken at the main hospital as outpatients and so the nurses do them. We do it away from the owner aswell so takes away a bit of pressure off us and the animals are normally a lot calmer aswell.

[/quote]

Yes, I have always found that patients are much easier to handle, and less stressed if the owner is not present. And that nurses are much better at venepuncture And more up to date on 'nursey stuff - like the best way to blood sample

Hence my grrr at vets doing it in consult, with crappy cephalic blue/orange needle crap!! CPD anyone?

Maybe that was a bit OTT - sorry, but this happens on a daily basis, and it is so hard to stand there restraining a cat for 10 mins for a procedure that I know we nurses could have done in 30 secs.........

agghhhhh!

sorry for ranting

Re: Green needles...

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:10:36 GMT

We got a unstable diabetic in currently, that's got a central line in! Even easier for blood sampling!

Re: Green needles...

Maisy — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:04:07 GMT

[quote user="Freckle"]

I agree that in big dogs ( and scrabble-tastic westies!) cephalic can be less stressful, but for cats I would always go jugular (if the vets would let me )

[/quote]

Definitely jugular for cats, occasionally will use cephalic for glucose measurements though. Some big dogs with thick necks tend to be easier with cephalic than finding a non existant jugular vein

Re: Green needles...

Kim Buckley — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:02:13 GMT

[quote user="Freckle"]

[quote user="Kimbo1985"]

Just get a nurse in there to take the blood before the vet does. Problem sorted

[/quote]

agghhhh!!!! immanent rantage!

[/quote]

Re: Green needles...

Freckle — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 22:00:29 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

I like my cephalics well in big dogs I do, and only use them if its just a BS and they dont need the vein for intravenous drugs as it is IMO less stressful for the larger dogs, as they dont like you messing about tilting their head.Oh and I have done the odd WHW....... you know the ones wi westie legs!!!!!!!!!!!! bouncing off the needle as you put it into the jugular, sometimes I give in and go for cephalic in that incidence.

[/quote]

I agree that in big dogs ( and scrabble-tastic westies!) cephalic can be less stressful, but for cats I would always go jugular (if the vets would let me )

Re: Green needles...

Freckle — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:56:53 GMT

[quote user="Kimbo1985"]

Just get a nurse in there to take the blood before the vet does. Problem sorted

[/quote]

agghhhh!!!! immanent rantage!

Re: Green needles...

Vicky RVN — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:54:23 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

[/quote]

I agree there are occasions where jugulars just aren't possible...had a lab the other day who totally freaked with head being raised but cephalic was fine.

Re: Green needles...

Vicky RVN — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:52:37 GMT

[quote user="Kimbo1985"]

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]

[quote user="Vicky C"]

Thanks guys! Seems like we are doing it right then (apart from the old school vets that is !)

[/quote]

You maybe able to teach an old dog new tricks, however when it comes to vets. You can't teach an old school vet new tricks!

[/quote]

Just get a nurse in there to take the blood before the vet does. Problem sorted

[/quote]

Or another trick i've learnt, position the animal ready for jugular!

Re: Green needles...

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:50:35 GMT

Re: Green needles...

Freckle — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:50:11 GMT

[quote user="Vicky C"]

Thanks guys! Seems like we are doing it right then (apart from the old school vets that is !)

[/quote]

Pleeeeaase don't get me started on the 'old school vets' - that would be whole ranty thread to itself!

Guess I was spoilt by starting my training in a multi discipline, purpose built, referral practice And then having to finish it in a small local place with one partner who graduated a million years ago Drives me nuts! Hehe!

Re: Green needles...

Kim Buckley — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:49:30 GMT

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]

[quote user="Vicky C"]

Thanks guys! Seems like we are doing it right then (apart from the old school vets that is !)

[/quote]

You maybe able to teach an old dog new tricks, however when it comes to vets. You can't teach an old school vet new tricks!

[/quote]

Just get a nurse in there to take the blood before the vet does. Problem sorted

Re: Green needles...

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:47:26 GMT

[quote user="Vicky C"]

Thanks guys! Seems like we are doing it right then (apart from the old school vets that is !)

[/quote]

You maybe able to teach an old dog new tricks, however when it comes to vets. You can't teach an old school vet new tricks!

Re: Green needles...

Kim Buckley — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:45:52 GMT

I always use a 21G! Really annoys me when people use a smaller needle because they think it's nicer to the cat. Means it takes longer and I know from giving blood myself a bigger needle doesn't necessarily mean more pain.

Re: Green needles...

Freckle — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:43:58 GMT

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]

2ml is fine. The LARGER the syringe the more pressure you need to put on the lunger therefore increasing the risk of collapsing the vein. I would use a 5ml on a cat if a lot of blood was required and a max of a 10ml in a dog.

[/quote]

Yay - you agree with my post (must have been replying at the same time)

With respect to syringe size - I have heard that less pressure is good also, but most vets/nurses I have worked with (me included) find the practicality of drawing back a 1ml syringe detrimental - takes forever and makes me all cackhanded! - 2ml alll the way

Re: Green needles...

Vicky RVN — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:43:09 GMT

Thanks guys! Seems like we are doing it right then (apart from the old school vets that is !)

Re: Green needles...

Freckle — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:39:25 GMT

Above mentioned excellent hospital would always use a 5ml syringe too - also in cats - if large amounts of blood were needed - one off venepuncture is better for the patient, than repeated handling and stabbing

Re: Green needles...

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:37:42 GMT

Re: Green needles...

Vicky RVN — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:34:46 GMT

[quote user="Freckle"]

gentle restraint, jugular sample, 21g with a 2ml syringe - its the way to go in my book!

[/quote]

That's what we do (well most of the time...some of the older vets use cephalic). If we are wanting a large amount of blood (from dogs) a 5ml syringe is used from jugular, what do you think to this then? Should we use a 2ml and go in twice??

I'm glad you all say you use 21g too, i was starting to doubt myself as to smaller affecting sample quality etc. Pleased to know my training is sinking in

Re: Green needles...

Freckle — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:25:37 GMT

Hi Nick

Agreed - cephalics are pants! I just wish they taught that at vet school 15 years ago - would make my working days a lot less frustrating!

Having to restrain a cat while a vet takes a cephalic b/s with a 25g needle, in front of a client, where the blood just keeps clotting in the needle, and cat gets increasingly pissed off......does BAD things for my BP and mood for the rest of the day!

What size syringe do you use Nick? Is 2ml not ok for a jugular? I have always been taught that it was the ideal, as long as you were gentle and steady with pulling back..?

Re: Green needles...

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:16:02 GMT

[quote user="Freckle"]

I was taught, in an excellent hospital, to always use 21g for all the reasons above. Where I work now, the vets always insist on either 23 or 25g (usually cephalic ) - always takes ages to get a sample,stressed out patients, and they are almost always haemolysed...

gentle restraint, jugular sample, 21g with a 2ml syringe - its the way to go in my book!

[/quote]

the larger the syringe the more pressure that has to be applied to withdraw the plunger!

I was always taught 21G too. and cephalics are rubbish for blood samples as it does not refill quick enough. and you are likely to collapse the vein! Cephalics should be reserved for iv catheters

Re: Green needles...

Freckle — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:07:29 GMT

gentle restraint, jugular sample, 21g with a 2ml syringe - its the way to go in my book!

Re: Green needles...

dinkyd — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:36:05 GMT

I use 21g to when taking blood for those reasons ie haemolysis and obtaining quicker sample.Also will find if a cat is going to go nuts it will do it with what ever size you use.

Re: Green needles...

Charlotte says smile — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:29:53 GMT

We use 21g for the same reason but also you run the risk of haemolysis if you use a 23g needle therefore if you are running a haematology you risk inaccurate results

Re: Green needles...

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:27:46 GMT

We use 21g for that same reason Vicky.

Re: Green needles...

Vicky RVN — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 12:46:54 GMT

Most of the time we use 21G for bloods samples, cat and dog. If you are using smaller the sample will surely take longer to get therefore risk of animal moving and sample clotting. One of the vets uses smaller but most of us don't.