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Caro Laithwaite VN — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:55:29 GMT

that is not technical l suppose later l will have to do a picture post with step by step ...

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Mrs Dot Dot — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:43:36 GMT

Try this

Didn't work ..Didn't understand the last bit.....

'add my url then do open in a new window (l hate it when links open in the active window)'

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Mrs Dot Dot — Mon, 07 Sep 2009 07:40:13 GMT

Haven't tried it yet... may well be far too technical for me......!!!

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Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 23:06:41 GMT

well i am glad Caro answered that as I didnt have a bloody clue! - would have been far too technical for me to get my head around

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Caro Laithwaite VN — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:31:35 GMT

You have the site you want to do a link to.

Highlight a word say l choose the word link l make it bold to stand out (look up above where you write and click on the B)

Then while the word is highlighted click on the chain link ( along from the B next to the broken chain link)

Clink on the unbroken bit of chain and add my url then do open in a new window (l hate it when links open in the active window)

and the job is done

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Mrs Dot Dot — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:14:07 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

Saw this today

[/quote]

FOR CARO AND SAL - How do you do this...?..........'Saw this today'.....

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Caro Laithwaite VN — Sun, 06 Sep 2009 19:07:30 GMT

Saw this today

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Louise B — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:21:49 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

Was just wondering on the 20% death toll in free range? did l miss read it or you miss write it or is that correct?

Forgot what is the death toll from.

[/quote]

Hi Caro, the death toll figure is extrapolated up from the death rate on the worst managed farms according to a study that was carried out. Please remember that the speeches have been written to sell each speaker's argument. We have a q&a session at the end in which I can challenge (and did at the debate today) those figures. We deliberately made the sides extreme to stimulate as much discussion/debate/pulling apart of our arguments by the teenagers we were presenting to.

The better managed farms have a death rate in the region of 10-12% but it is very variable between farms. For enriched or battery caged systems its about 5 - 6%. They die from a range of things: predation, infection, cannabalism, etc. Basically the better the management the lower the death rate.

Out of interest, pre-factory farming (end war time) it was not uncommon for free range flocks to suffer losses as much as a 1/3 of the flock.

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Louise B — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:12:42 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

and were promptly given them back, have salvaged what I could. doesnt look like I will need to buy chicken for a while

[/quote]

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Sal the 1st — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:20:44 GMT

on the way to the rubbish tip yesterday I went past a truly free range farm - the hens roam over what looks like at 4-5 fields on both sides of the road. Look to be a few thousand hens scratching around all very happy looking, well feathered , clean birds.

Unfortunately the twat in the car in front was doing about 60 and wiped out @ couple dozen birds. We stopped and the ones that werent dead outright we finished off and took down to the farm - and were promptly given them back, have salvaged what I could. doesnt look like I will need to buy chicken for a while

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Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 09:11:54 GMT

Was just wondering on the 20% death toll in free range? did l miss read it or you miss write it or is that correct?

Forgot what is the death toll from.

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Freckle — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:04:41 GMT

reply to add - neither me nor my lil one like eggs, so they aren't an issue. the few times i have wanted some i have had them off the local organic, free range farm.... but have never actually seen their 'free range' chooks :(

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Freckle — Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:02:40 GMT

wow - it was nosiness that brought me here.... but now i am concerned! i very very rarely buy meat at all, and the only time i do, is a 'happy' chicken - one that says on the packaging that it was slow grown and free range..... because i think that the welfare of animals in the foodchain is of utmost importance- hence why i very rarely buy meat of any form! i only like beef and chicken, and apart from buying beef from a local farmer (which i do about once every 2 years), buying happy chickens from the supermarket is the only guilt free way i can eat meat....

meat as a foodstuff doesn't mean a lot to me - i eat it perhaps 2 or 3 times a year.. my family is for all intents and purposes vegetarian.. but i do enjoy the rare 'real' roast dinner, and would like to educate family and friends further...... if they will listen ;p

both sides of this argument are very convincing....

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Vicky RVN — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:23:35 GMT

Wow i enjoyed reading that! Organic free range eggs all the way for me My sisters 3 chickens produce lovely eggs!

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Louise B — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:13:57 GMT

I think the real take home message is that none of the housing systems really are adequate for housing laying hens. They all have flaws that are not removeable given the price we are prepared for eggs

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Louise B — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:12:14 GMT

This is an enriched cage. At the right end is the nest box (don't have those in battery caged). It has no bedding though (just a mat on the floor) and one nest box could be shared with 40 birds (all wanting to use the nest box at the same time). Ar the left end is the scratch mat - again a plastic mat on the floor designed to allow birds to be able to scratch/forage. The rest of the floor is mesh to allow droppings to fall through. It is 5cm taller than regular cages but still not as high as studies have shown birds would like. The green bits are perching bars but these are literally a few cms of the ground so does the bird actually perceive these as perches? This image shows a double dutchman cage (ie. two cages put together) - if it was used as one cage 80 birds would be housed in this cage.

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Louise B — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:05:28 GMT

Bugger!!!! I was slaughtered last night - wayyyyy too much booze - I posted my opponent's speech and not mine (I wrote them both). I need to clarify a few bits first. The 1 in 5 birds figure is based on the worse case free range farms. The death rate in enriched (and battery cages) is about 5-6% for most/all farms surveyed. With free range farms the death rate varies massively across farms surveyed. The worse farm had a 20% death rate and we have used this figure to exagerate likely deaths to stimulate discussion in the Q&A session that follows about animal welfare and science. However, the death rate on the better farms is still about twice that of caged birds.

However, remember that Jenny's speech is deliberately one-sided as she is trying to get a vote for cages. The enriched cage does give more space - but it is a tiny bit more - off the top of my head I think they get 600cm square (a bit more than a sheet of A4) but I would have to check this figure. Cannabalism is controlled partially by lighting - the sheds are so dark with only the minimum amount of lighting needed to stimulate egg production. Having been in one of these sheds collecting data for about 6 hours I would say that it feels like being in darkness with a night light on on those push-in types. I can find you a picture of an enriched cage later but you can find one easily enough through google images. Try using the search term "big dutchman"!!!!

My speech is being reworked today but it currently stands as this:

Hi everyone!

Okay, I would like to put the case for why I believe that keeping layer chickens in cages is unacceptable and why they should be housed in non-cage systems - such as barn housed or free-range. I will present four arguments for why I believe that non-caged systems are better and why the battery cage should be banned.

So…. How should we measure chicken welfare? Well… a good way of measuring whether a housing system meets the welfare needs of chickens is to ask whether ALL the bird’s five freedoms are being met. *POINT AT THE POWERPOINT SLIDE OF FIVE FREEDOMS* It is IMPOSSIBLE to give caged birds the freedom to express normal behaviour. Scientists have found that even basic behaviours like full wing flaps are impossible in the space allowed to each individual chicken. Imagine never being able to stretch your arms! Therefore, the first reason that cages are an unacceptable is that housing birds in cages PREVENTS the POSSIBILITY of meeting ALL FIVE FREEDOMS. You simply CANNOT meet this freedom WITHOUT abolishing CAGES. On the other hand, free-range systems HAVE the POTENTIAL to achieve ALL of these freedoms. If there are problems of they are problems of MANAGEMENT not SYSTEM. Therefore, you can change the MANAGEMENT but keep the NON-CAGE SYSTEM. As the saying goes don’t the BABY out with the BATH WATER.

The second reason cages are unacceptable is that they deny chickens the opportunity to carry out behaviours that are REALLY important to chickens. We know that chickens don’t want to live in cages. How do we know? Scientists have asked them. Chickens voted overwhelmingly with their feet. NO to the cage! But why do chickens dislike cages? Well… they probably prefer more space because more space allows them to… well… do more chicken-like things. Things chickens REALLY REALLY WANT to do. Scientists have found chickens REALLY want to:

DUST BATHE
PERCH IN HIGH PLACES
BUILD NESTS EVEN WHEN SUPPLIED
LAY EGGS IN NESTS
HAVE MORE SPACE TO MOVE ABOUT

How do we know that chickens REALLY WANT these things? Scientists have found that they will work as hard as or nearly as hard they will for food to get access to these things. Chickens will push through heavy doors, squeeze through tiny spaces, peck buttons hundreds of times, and so on. This means that, at times, the chicken values these things as much as or almost as much as food itself. NONE of these is properly catered for in the ENRICHED CAGE. ASK YOURSELF: If all hens want to lay eggs in the morning and each hen wants to spend up to 2 hours in a nest, how can ONE nest cater properly for the needs of up to EIGHTY birds. If it’s wrong to deny a chicken access to food then surely it’s wrong to deny chickens access to these things also?

The third reason the cage is unacceptable is it leads to OLD LADY’S BONES SYNDROME. Old Lady’s Bones Syndrome is my name for Osteoporosis. Osteoporosis is a debilitating condition that is caused by too little calcium in the bones. I am sure everybody has seen the little old ladies that are hunched over and who break their bones easily… well… chickens can suffer from this too. In fact, chickens need so much calcium in order to lay eggs that they can develop osteoporosis very easily. Sadly, this means that the birds’ bones break easily which is painful and stressful for the birds. Consequently, many caged birds suffer multiple fractures when they are caught and sent for slaughter.

Thankfully there is an answer – EXERCISE. Exercise can prevent or slow down development of osteoporosis. Unfortunately, birds in cages cannot take enough exercise. They cannot strengthen their wing bones as they cannot stretch them out fully and they cannot walk far as the cages are too small. The only way to get the birds to exercise more is to get rid of the cage. Therefore, if we care about layer birds not becoming old ladies before their time then we MUST abolish caged systems.

Finally…. We should move to using non-caged systems because it WON’T cost us MUCH more to do so. STATE THE COSTS. SWEDEN and GERMANY have already PROVED that it is possible to ONLY have NON-CAGE SYSTEMS and still have a viable national egg industry. The costs of a switch are small to us but the benefits large for the chickens…. Isn’t it time for the UK to switch also?

Right, to summarise my argument: you should vote for non-caged systems because:

One…. They are the only way it is possible to meet the FIVE FREEDOMS

Two… They allow birds to perform behaviours that birds REALLY Want to do

Three… They help prevent OLD LADIES BONES SYNDROME

Four… It won’t cost much more to house birds this way so is a viable alternative.

Thank you for listening.

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Mrs Dot Dot — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:15:06 GMT

Hi Nick... i meant the questions about POHM's enriched cages I can't look at battery hen pictures... they are horific! Just wondered how different the enriched cages were?

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Nick Shackleton — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:11:34 GMT

Was gonna post some pics Mrs D but they are pretty horiffic!!! Google images "battery chicken cages"

One to a cage, barely enough room to turn around, stood on mesh

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Mrs Dot Dot — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 08:08:39 GMT

Sometimes it is better to know...........interesting! (I think) Always buy free range eggs... know there are some problems and that the system isn't perfect but didn't know to that extent. How big are the cages? and how many do they have in 1 cage? What are they standing on?

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Louise B — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 00:34:30 GMT

Told yu. Sometimes its better not knowinfH!

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Louise B — Tue, 01 Sep 2009 00:32:51 GMT

Tsk.... It really isn' t that excititn (apoligies - too mcuih wine).... here i will cut and pasrte for use to look at:

*SLIDE 1*

Hi,

We all know that Jamie Oliver and lots of other celebrities think cages should be banned. But are they right? Today I hope to convince all of you that layer hen chickens should be housed in enriched cages and NOT free range systems.

But… first…. Some figures….

26 MILLION…. That’s how many layer chickens there are in the UK.

1 YEAR – that’s how long birds lay eggs for in commercial systems.

Now, IMAGINE that all 26 million birds were free range. During the laying year, poor management could mean up to 1 in 5 of these birds will die – often bullied and pecked to death by their flock mates.

*SLIDE 2*

That’s 4 million more birds each year than would die if these same birds were caged.

*pause for effect – count to 3*

*speak slowly* Still think free range is best?

*pause for effect – count to 3*

So…. Briefly… what is the enriched cage? Well… from 2012 every caged bird in Europe MUST be housed in an enriched cage. The enriched cage is the product of huge amounts of scientific research to create a welfare-friendly house for layers hens. Birds have needs – scientists have identified this needs and catered for them.

*SLIDE 4 – PICTURE OF ENRICHED CAGE* *Talk people through the slide and sound enthusiastic J *

Birds have:

- Perches…. To roost on at night

- A nest box … to lay eggs in

- A scratching mat …to forage for feed

- Small flock sizes

- Easy access to food & water

- Comfortable room temperature

- Good air quality

- Rapid faeces removal – they drop through the bars at the bottom

But they don’t have the welfare problems of non-cage birds. Basically, scientists have taken the GOOD bits of free range living but REMOVED the BAD bits!

So….. what are the bad bits? Well…. There are numerous problems but today I will focus on 3 of the main problems.

The first problem is flock size. *SLIDE 4* In non-cage systems chickens live in flocks of up to 4000. In the wild, the flock size would be around 6 birds. A big difference and it matters. Everybody here has heard of the pecking order, right? Chickens have a pecking order which they rigidly enforce. Defer to your superior or be pecked. Once chickens have learnt their place in the flock there is harmony. However, if you cannot remember who is your superior you cannot defer. Scientists have found out that birds can only recognise about 20 other flock mates. So they are constantly stressed by meeting birds they don’t recognise as they don’t know how to behave around these birds. By creating the enriched cages, scientists have ensured that the flock size is more NATURAL.

*PAUSE – 3 seconds*

*SLOWLY SPEAK* Still think free range is best?

* PAUSE – 3 seconds*

But STRESS is NOT the only problem of large flock sizes…. It’s how the birds deal with the problem of unfamiliarity. They PECK at each other – causing nasty injuries. OTHER birds are drawn to the sight of BLOOD and attack the injured bird – often causing a PAINFUL DEATH. *SLIDE 5* Scientists have found that cannibalism is worse in large flock sizes. The largest flock sizes are found in non-cage housing. By reducing the flock size you reduce CANNIBALISM. The only way to drastically reduce flock size while ensuring that egg production is commercially viable is to house birds in cages.

* PAUSE – 3 seconds*

*SLOWLY SPEAK* Still think free range is best?

* PAUSE – 3 seconds*

The third problem with free range systems is poor disease and infection control. *SLIDE 6* Birds in enriched cages are healthier. Keeping free range housing clean is difficult, it’s costly and it’s labour-intensive. Birds run around bird faeces all day AND with up to 4000 birds, each producing faeces every 2 hours that’s A LOT of POO to be standing and scratching for seed in! Scientists have found that non-caged birds are MUCH more likely to DIE from E-COLI infection. They may also suffer from a PAINFUL condition called BUMBLEFOOT. Bumblefoot is a nasty foot infection that causes PAIN & LAMENESS. Chickens that are in pain EAT LESS, MOVE ABOUT LESS and get BULLIED more. Because of the faeces the air quality inside the sheds is also poor. Scientists have found non-caged birds can have BREATHING DIFFICULTIES caused by breathing in ammonia from faeces and dust from wood shavings.

*PAUSE – 3 seconds*

*SLOWLY SPEAK* Still think free range is best?

Summary:

Less mortality
Less morbidity
More healthy
Cheaper to produce

Still think free range is best?

*END WITH CARTOON SLIDE*

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les punton — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 21:01:25 GMT

i resisted for a few days but it got the better of me, its like when some1 says dont look now but............ u automatically turn round!

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Julie — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 20:58:01 GMT

Had to have a peek

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Vicky RVN — Mon, 31 Aug 2009 19:08:51 GMT

[quote user="Princess Ophelia Hermione MacBeth"]

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]

How rude!

[/quote]

How honest!

[/quote]

lol

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