What do you get paid for????

Re: What do you get paid for????

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:13:51 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

What counts as work?

As well as carrying out your normal duties, your working week includes:

job-related training
job-related travelling time, for example, if you are a sales rep
working lunches, for example business lunches
time spent working abroad, if you work for a UK-based company
paid and some unpaid overtime
time spent 'on-call' at the workplace

[/quote]

Re: What do you get paid for????

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 18:11:32 GMT

Hi Minnow,

I dont know if you have seen other threads about working times etc, but it has been discussed on here a good few times.

If you look at what Sal put up about working and break times etc, you will see that if you are in the building.....working or not, it is still considered as working and you should be getting an hourly rate for this.

Hope this helps.

Re: What do you get paid for????

Minnow — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 10:09:54 GMT

Thanks Hissycat.

We have a great team and they are worth fighting for.

To be honest the practice setup, site, facilities, training etc is good. If only we could get this sorted out we would be such a fantastic practice. I guess this is why I get so worked up about it. It's like having a drop dead gorgeous guy that has mood swings. Luckily there's more than one man at the top of this pile - I'll keep chipping away.

Re: What do you get paid for????

hissycat — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 09:40:02 GMT

Grrr... it makes me soo mad when I read this and see how you are being treated! This is one of the reasons I am leaving the profession! Even if you are sleeping, if you are required to be at your place of work then that counts as working hours, and I think I am correct in saying you are entitled to 11 hrs uninterupted rest between shifts. (sorry if thats been said already) They are using your dedication to make money and then pay you peanuts. I have been subject to simlilar and know so many others who have too. Please please make a stand, you may well be more respected for it in the end! This sounds not just unfair, but completely illegal. You should not have to convince them, they should count themselves lucky you aren't reporting them and then going to a better practice where your dedication would be appreciated. (which I think you should do if you can!!)

Re: What do you get paid for????

Minnow — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 08:47:48 GMT

Thanks all. I think I've been standing from a rather defensive place for a bit too long. Hopefully the info you have posted Sal will help others too. If you look at some of the forum users' rotas it really is scary. Those one or two nurse practices ouch!

Still, a glass of wine and a good nights sleep have made a difference.

I have presented management with this info and a letter from BVNA but we had the usual head in the sand. Maintaining the daytime rota and keeping staff costing down is obviously their priority. I regularly get "but the average hours they work is only 2 - 3 hours"

I would like them to do the hourly checks my nurse has just done or even a 2 hourly. You just know that if I arrange it, we'll have a quiet night. I think that's my next move though.

Out of interest, what do you charge the clients for hospitalized patients on hourly or 2 hourly checks?

We have added a £1 to all our consults and vaccines as well as upping the hospitalization and intensive care charges since we went to 24 hour nursing cover. Printing reports today to check how our charging is going - I think the financial bit is going to have to be the ultimate convincer.

Re: What do you get paid for????

Sal the 1st — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 22:07:29 GMT

I'm sorry if you thought I was getting at you Minnow - really I wasnt - I put the stuff up so you had it in black and white and could show it to your bosses (no other reason).

I do think you are getting a rough deal and hope you get somewhere with this

Re: What do you get paid for????

Mrs Dot Dot — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:56:02 GMT

Understandable! Don't think anyone was getting at you...I haven't read it like that. That's what this forum is about.... along with a few heated discussions, which makes things interesting!

Does sound like you are getting a rough deal...... so you are right to look into things

Re: What do you get paid for????

Minnow — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:28:07 GMT

Ooh dear I think someone is soap boxing again!! Sorry all, got a bit worked up.

Re: What do you get paid for????

Minnow — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 20:46:40 GMT

Ok so I have a bee in my bonnet, what can I say.

Yes this is the same topic another thread and can't see that WTD helps. It says that what doesn't count as work is the breaks when you are not working. So the management are right not paying, if they tell you not to work between essential hands on??

On the other hand, it also says that anyone that is required to be on call, on site, regardless of sleep, is working. So the nurses should be paid even if sleeping??

It also says that there should be an 11 hour gap between shifts. Does this mean that you shouldnt start work, after working all day Friday, until 5am the next day. If there is a normal Saturday shift of 9 -1 pm. Are you allowed to do it if you started at 5am? Can a shift be 60 hours long?

This thread was started not because I was doing the work and wanted to get out of it. It was because I was seeing one of my nurses working her butt off and not feeling she was going to be fairly paid at the end of it.

You know as well as I do that hourly checks do not allow for sleep in between. What health issues should we be considering here?

I want to argue a case for a fairer rota but I want to be clear as to what is fair before I do it.

Forgive me if I'm boring you but I have several unhappy nurses and am finding it hard to balance, care for the patient, care for the staff and care for the practice income.

If I'm going to improve things I need leverage that will stand up in an argument. Is it wrong to use the forum to try to get a genuine feeling for what is right and wrong?

Re: What do you get paid for????

Sal the 1st — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 19:17:52 GMT

Employment

Working time limits (the 48-hour week)

You should not have to work more than 48 hours a week on average, unless you choose to, or work in a sector with its own special rules. Your normal working hours should be set out in your contract of employment or written statement of employment particulars.

What counts as work?

As well as carrying out your normal duties, your working week includes:

job-related training
job-related travelling time, for example, if you are a sales rep
working lunches, for example business lunches
time spent working abroad, if you work for a UK-based company
paid and some unpaid overtime
time spent 'on-call' at the workplace

Working two different jobs

If you work two jobs you could either:

consider signing an opt-out agreement with your employers if your total time worked is over 48 hours or
reduce your hours to meet the 48-hour limit

What does not count as work?

Your working week does not include:

breaks when no work is done, such as lunch breaks
normal travel to and from work
time when you are 'on call' away from the workplace
evening and day-release classes not related to work
travelling outside of normal working hours
unpaid overtime that you have volunteered for, so for example, staying late to finish something off
paid or unpaid holiday

Opting out of the 48 hour week

If you are 18 or over and wish to work more than 48 hours a week, you can choose to opt out of the 48 hour limit. This must be voluntary and in writing. It can't be an agreement with the whole workforce and you shouldn't be sacked or unfairly treated (for example refused promotion or overtime) for refusing to sign an opt-out.

If you sign an opt-out, you have the right to cancel this agreement at any time by giving between one week and three months' notice. You can agree this notice period with your employer when you sign the opt-out. If no notice period is agreed then you only need to give one week’s notice of cancellation. You can cancel an opt-out even if it's part of a contract you have signed.

Example of opt-out agreement

I (name) agree that I may work for more than an average of 48 hours a week. If I change my mind, I will give my employer (amount of time - up to three months) notice in writing to end this agreement.

Signed……....................................
Dated………..................................

Young workers

If you are under 18 and over school leaving age you are classed as a young worker. You are under school leaving age until the end of the summer term of the school year in which you turn 16. Young workers have different working time limits than adult workers.

Young workers and working hours (young people section)

Who is not covered by the working time limits?

Your working week is not covered by the working time limits if you work in the following areas:

jobs where you can choose freely how long you will work (eg a managing executive)
the armed forces, emergency services and police are excluded in some circumstances
domestic servants in private houses
sea transport workers
mobile workers in inland waterways and lake transport
workers on board sea going fishing vessels

For more information on working hours for drivers and crew of heavy goods vehicles (HGV) and passenger service vehicle (PSV) drivers, contact the Vehicle and Operator Standards Agency (VOSA) on 08706 060 440.

This is from the directgov website on the WTD - I posted the link on another thread but it looks like the same questions are still being asked?

Its also worth noting that even junior doctors as from the 1st August do not have to work more than 48hrs

Re: What do you get paid for????

Minnow — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:52:06 GMT

We're paid hourly rates. QVNs work out at approx £15,600 b4 O/T. Average paid £35 for whole night every fortnight £910/annum. If you are hands on for wk/end of 8 hrs then just over £100 for whole weekend. Thats one in eight for us so a further £650. Averages £17000.

When you consider they get average £35 for 14 hours on site on a night duty and £100 for 72 hrs on site for a weekend - that's when it doesnt look so hot.

If you avaerage the time spent at practice into weekly amounts ie 40 hrs(Mon-Fri) + 3.5 hrs(nights) + 7.75(w/ends) + 1.25(sats)= 52.5 hrs Then take away average compensatory time in lieu - 2( half day til for night) - 1( one day for wk/end) = 49.5 hr wk for £17000. Is this a good wage?

Re: What do you get paid for????

les punton — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 16:14:56 GMT

we work our normal week then on call the weekend, we get no extra pay for this but do charge the animal for approprite work done (what I see of it isnt what the client gets charged) I then work my normal week.

recent had a crap one though where I was there til 1 in the morning on friday night, worked normal sat then, in and out sun til 3 in the morning.

I was very tired on monday and ended up going home (however this isnt always possible)

Re: What do you get paid for????

lissy27 — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 15:34:11 GMT

Do most VNs not get a set salary then? It sounds as if all the different hours you guys do that you must never know how much pay you are going to get at the end of the month!! That must be diffcult for people with mortgages, or alot of direct debits!!

Its probaly been discussed on here before but what is the average salary for a VN? Theres so many comments about crap pay, etc- or is it just crap because of all the OT and long hours?

Re: What do you get paid for????

Nick Shackleton — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 12:58:48 GMT

forgot to mention if we work a weekend we do 16hrs work and get 4 days off for working it therefore double time

Re: What do you get paid for????

Kim Buckley — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 12:53:11 GMT

Where I work you work from 8am Sat until Monday morning and you can then also work Monday. We get two days off for working the weekend days and £75 a night which is counted as 6pm until 8am. If you working more than 8 hours in the day then you get paid time and a half up until 6pm

Re: What do you get paid for????

Nick Shackleton — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 11:45:43 GMT

If us nurses are required to stay at the practice (ie if we are an intern down) then we are paid per the hr for thw whole time we are in the building. there have been a few nights where I've been in the practice from 9pm til 8am and got paid for the whole lot, whether I was nursing or not. And then by 11am I had my boss telling me to go home and get some rest! Think this is the prob with private practices bosses can run them as they see fit. I've worked in hospital status practices in the past and got paid £25 retention fee for staying over in the building, which includes inpatient care and didnt matter if you had 10 or 20 inpatients in. You would only get paid extra if you were called out! And thats only if the vet remember to charge the client for it! If they didnt charge you didnt get paid!!!

Re: What do you get paid for????

Minnow — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:59:11 GMT

These weekends are rapidly becoming the norm. We only get paid for the time you work on the animals. So, one dog on 2 hourly checks of 10 mins throughout the weekend = 8 hrs pay. You only get TIL if you exceed 8 hours "hands on" . The Sat is at normal rate, as is the Fri that leads into it. So you have 72 hours with no proper sleep and we accept 8 hours pay - How does that work? Is the idea that if you are kept tired enough there will be no energy left to argue the toss?

Re: What do you get paid for????

Maisy — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:52:50 GMT

I locum now, but my last placed paid weekend working by the hour as well as a day off TIL. Compensated a little for rubbish weekends as for shifts like that, the money would be pretty good after, especially if it was night working. Uusually though the vets would carry out most of the early a.m checks, or for intensive cases, work out staggered shifts for both of you to cover.

When you are paid a flat rate for a weekend its normally not accounted for the fact your weekend can be either quiet, or incredibly manic.

Re: What do you get paid for????

dinkyd — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:44:51 GMT

[quote user="Minnow"]

How would your practice pay for this? When would you be back in work?

You start work on Friday at 9am work till 6pm then start your weekend shift. As well as the 5 hosp cases that are on 4hrly checks, you get a dog in that once stable by 1am goes onto hourly checks. You continue working when the Sat morning shift arrives and are still going after they leave at 1pm and finally get lunch at 4.30. You are then on 2hrly checks on 3 patients all requiring tube feeding. There are 4 others in on 4 hourlys. In between others come and go - the usual blood tests, minor stitch-ups. This continues through until Monday 8am when you do handovers. You've managed to do over 8hrs "hands on" so you can go home once that is complete.

[/quote]

This quite a common thing at my previous job - was tier 2 practice and got hospital status just before i left - our weekends would start at 12pm on friday work through til 7pm we then were required to stay on premises until monday 8:30am but then have to work til 1pm.Inpatients seen to as required - This was a very busy practice and weekends as you describe very common!We also had a saturday surgery 9 til 1pm and we had another nurse with us as well as a receptionist.

Didnt get paid extra for this - apparently included in our wage - we did however have half day mon, tues and then off wed, thurs, fri - so in effect this was our pay back.

Re: What do you get paid for????

Mrs Dot Dot — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:33:37 GMT

That is one hell of a rough wekend! I'm guessing it is one of yours?? If you don't speak to your boss/practice manager about it then they will not know what hours you work. I worked at a practice where I spent 2 weekday nights (different weeks) with continually fitting dogs with pre and post full on working days as well, which you were just expected to work....made worse by the vets on call not being interested in coming out to help after the third time... my boss didn't listen/ wasn't interested etc etc...I'd been there 7 yrs... for me it was the final straw.... handed my notice in and got another job.....option?

Re: What do you get paid for????

Nick Shackleton — Sun, 23 Aug 2009 10:29:14 GMT

Our interns cover the nights at our place so I would get to go home in the evenings. We are contracted in to work 8hrs both sat and sun (broken into 6hrs in the morning and 2hrs in the evening) anything about this we get paid at overtime rate of pay.