Working Time Directive???

Re: Working Time Directive???

Minnow — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 19:44:14 GMT

This is why I started this topic in the forum. I'm so fed up with the way that no one stands up for their rights. I have had several up front conversations with management. We even got to a general meeting where they acknowledged there were rules out there that they should be abiding by. Then they buried it. Now I'm a lone voice and the others are keeping their heads down. I believe that if you are obliged to stay within a practice for your entire shift it should be paid for.I think that you should also work for a good proportion of that shift so that the practice doesn't perceive it as paying for nothing. I think that paying for hands on time only is wrong, It opens up a a whole lot of bad feeling when management is suspicious of over egging time sheets and staff having to constantly defend the time it takes to perform tasks. The premise that management do not trust their staff and they begrudge paying them is abhorrent. This is not the way to build a happy team.

Has anyone ever managed to get their bosses to do a shift with them, from start to finish?

Re: Working Time Directive???

Shane — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 09:38:18 GMT

Some of you know which group I worked for and know their tactics. I was new in the country and did not know otherwise. Now I do, and accordingly work for a company that looks after their employees better than most places!

Re: Working Time Directive???

Sal the 1st — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 08:23:35 GMT

yes its hard when people say that they are with you and then do a u turn at the last minute I know exactly what you mean

Re: Working Time Directive???

Freckle — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:43:35 GMT

i agree sal, but i was in a position where all the other STUDENT nurses agreed with me, but when push came to shove, they all backed off and left me standing there on my own! All the VNs were in managements pockets (clique much?), so I got shoved out the practice before I could blink!!!

Re: Working Time Directive???

Sal the 1st — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:24:33 GMT

I hear what you are saying Freckle - as I say been there myself, and I know it isnt at all easy - but sometimes if you feel that strongly about something you just have to make a stand, and if all the nurses in the practice get together that is a pretty strong demonstration

Re: Working Time Directive???

Freckle — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:16:47 GMT

from experience it is so difficult for an inexperienced member of staff to stand up to the bosses - as a 19 yr old SVN desperate to keep their place, you tend to just believe what the practice manager tells you! When I was in that position I called the RCVS and BVNA who both urged me to take further action .... but I didn't! (This was many moons ago).

When, as a student ANA or SVN, or even as an auxilliary SVN, your boss tells you to work said hours, 'it's in your contract' - it takes a rare brave breed to stand up to their bosses! I tried once, and got fired for it! Oh no, not fired - I handed my notice in after months of bullying from management because I stood up to them!

Re: Working Time Directive???

Sal the 1st — Fri, 21 Aug 2009 00:13:26 GMT

I appreciate that Shane - in fact I used to be one of them ( I think the first 15 years were the hardest) But once I started putting my foot down a bit I found I didnt get asked so often and employers actually started to respect my time quite a bit more, and I know people are scared of losing their jobs but in reality that doesnt happen all that often. I am not suggesting for 1 minute that nurses should down tools and walk and leave a patient at risk, what I am suggesting is that each time rules or regulations are about to be broken it is brought to an employers attention and that a complaint is logged - and if you lose your job as a result of it ? - well you did the right thing you lodged a complaint and you refused to break the law.

Re: Working Time Directive???

Shane — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:59:05 GMT

*shakes head* it's amazing how they get away with it. They know most nurses are afraid they will lose their job so they just keep quiet!

Re: Working Time Directive???

Sal the 1st — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:58:53 GMT

Mrs Dot Dot is right - all the regulations in the world will not change things there are still plenty of employers who will break rules and regulations - BUT, and this is a big but - they can only break regulations and rules if employees let them by working the shifts or by accepting unsafe conditions without complaint in the first place, and I know it is hard to make a complaint to the boss - I've been there - but if you dont and stay quiet your non-response will probably be taken as a willing acceptance. I know I am going to be very very unpopular for saying this but it is something I feel very strongly about.

If you want change then you have to do something that will help make it happen

Re: Working Time Directive???

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:55:49 GMT

I beat you Shane. Friday 19:00 till monday 08:00 not allowed out the building even to the car park and no extra money. A so called bonus that at tops was around 5.00 (no not joking)

Re: Working Time Directive???

Mrs Dot Dot — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 22:20:15 GMT

[quote user="Shane"]

Just reading all these posts makes me realise how my previsou work broke the rules constantly. Weekend duties often consisted of being in the building for at least 27 hours. No pay from 10pm till 7am of each night duty. Really crap working conditions.

[/quote]

There are alot of people that have your experiences Shane, things will never change with some practices/bosses, no matter what laws/ rules and regs are brought in!

Re: Working Time Directive???

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 18:03:28 GMT

I've done a few shifts like that Shane! Proper pants glad my current practice take it serious. Been told on several occassions after being at work all night to go home by my boss!

Re: Working Time Directive???

Shane — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 17:59:42 GMT

Re: Working Time Directive???

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 08:10:52 GMT

Yeah we have one and it is left in the building all the time its really useful. not sure how expensive it is as I aint in management! You should look into it! I have set it off a few times by mistake and within about 10 mins the vet on call is on the phone asking me if everything is ok! and our policy is that if they dont get a reply to head down to the practice to chck up on us

Re: Working Time Directive???

Minnow — Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:53:16 GMT

Nick Have your practice been using these? It looks good but couldn't see any costs. Is it expensive. As a hospital, we have to have a nurse on site at all times. Lots of the girls find it pretty scary going through the practice on their own at night. We also have to walk the dogs in the wee small hours, leaving us vulnerable. Not so bad if its a big Rottie of course

Re: Working Time Directive???

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 19:49:19 GMT

for lone working we use a personal alarm which is much like those ones old people wear allowing the company to listen in and decide if the person is at risk or not and alert the vet on call the boss and practice manager.

We too are on an industrial estate out in the middle of no where, lots of truckers about cos its just off the motorway

check out this link

http://www.peoplesafe.co.uk/

Re: Working Time Directive???

Night — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 19:34:51 GMT

My boss was pretty grumpy with me but I think he reckoned I'd be a sure bet to do it 'cause of my home circumstances.

There is a small retention fee for those doing the weekday checks but not for the weekend people. You also get a fee for each time you have to come in.

It depends upon each individual case and is left up to our discretion. You can go home between checks, which of course adds petrol to your costs.

My big arguement was safety. A lone female in an industrial estate at night by herself is easy pickings.

Re: Working Time Directive???

Minnow — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 19:31:11 GMT

How have your bosses reacted to the ones that have refused? What sort of rota have the ones that have agreed now doing?

Do they get paid a different rate for the overnight hours?

How often do you have to tend animals overnight?

Do you have a maximum time between checks?

Are they allowed to sleep between checks?

Sorry lots of questions. My practice has maximum 4 hr between checks for safe cases due to go home. Max 2hr between checks for i/v fluids patients. Constant monitoring for dyspnoeic, fitting or blood transfusion. I think this is pretty standard. We only get paid for hands on time with the patients. So if you have to get up every 2 hrs for 15 mins you get paid the same as someone that did a one and a half hour op at 7pm and then the dog went home. Them's the shakes with the night shift I guess but one is capable of doing a day shift the next day and the other isn't, in my book.

In our practice neither get to go home until the afternoon, even though they started work at 9am the day before. Is this right??

Re: Working Time Directive???

Night — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 19:22:40 GMT

I know that and you know that but try telling my practice that!! Unfortunately there are several key changes that could be made which would reduce paperwork and faffing around staff have to do, thereby improving the work/time management in the practice but our head nurse resists any change and so they are not made.

One key one would be a computer system to stop us having to run up a couple of flights of stairs to get a case card every time someone calls. We work downstairs and all the case cards are upstairs. I think I may nearly have persuaded my boss..... but not quite........ who knows. My head nurse took me into a room and gave me telling off saying we are not computerised, we will not be computerised and if you don't like it tough. Same with other stuff......... CPD, you can do it but it won't change how we do things here so don't expect to come back and change things. I give up. Actually, no I don't, it just makes me more determined ;o)

Re: Working Time Directive???

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 19:14:59 GMT

Indirectly it does benefit the practice!

As staff that are well rested usually on the ball and less likely to make mistakes when it comes to drug calculations/anaesthesia

I personally think it is stupid to make staff burn the candle at both ends

Re: Working Time Directive???

Night — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 18:54:32 GMT

Our practice is up on H&S when it suits them. They are quick enough to forget it when they want us to do something.

The WTD hasn't even been discussed even though we've recently lost the out of hours service that used to come in and check our inpatients overnight. They wanted us to finish our shifts and then come in overnight by ourselves [the practice is in an industrial estate and there have been several "issues" this year] and then do our shift the next day. A couple of the girls are going to do it but a few of us have refused. I've said I'll do my weekends on call, so I'll start my shift on a friday morning and work through including nights until the monday am but won't do weekdays. I knew about the WTD and the 11hr break between shifts but to be honest it's not the sort of practice where you could say owt about such stuff unless it would benefit the practice.

Re: Working Time Directive???

Nick Shackleton — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 13:35:30 GMT

If you work within the WTD then you have to by law have 11hrs break between the end of one shift and the start of your next shift

Re: Working Time Directive???

Minnow — Sat, 15 Aug 2009 13:22:37 GMT

Sal the 1st thanks for the link but I still find the info confusing. If you do night duties as a third or more of your total work then it is much clearer. Could it be, if the contract says that between your hands on work that you must take enforced breaks, then they only have to pay you for the hands on time? This is the bit I'm trying to get to the bottom of.

It used to be that the nurses were called whenever a caesarian or a torsion came in and the vet covered the rest. Now the nurses stay on site, the vets only come in for the emergency stuff and we do the drip checks, cleaning & treatments. No probs with this, we all like the work but we also want to establish a balanced pay and TIL structure, without crippling the business too.

Re: Working Time Directive???

Kim Buckley — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 17:53:46 GMT

All the nurses at my place have signed out of it. If we do a weekend we will work from 8am Sat until Mon 5pm! Rubbish!

Re: Working Time Directive???

Sal the 1st — Fri, 14 Aug 2009 10:18:22 GMT

the link I posted explains what is classed as working hours and what is not