PDSA

Re: PDSA

Fiona Leathers — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:22:43 GMT

When you phone the PDSA office in Sunderland, they're still called the Green Form and yes, they are a nighmare to deal with!!

Re: PDSA

Angiy Michael — Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:38:15 GMT

Aha ! That explains it ! Thanks Kate !

Re: PDSA

Kate Claxton DipAVN(Med)VN — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:20:21 GMT

Just to add some practices call them PDSA Green Forms still but I think the official name changed to PetAid voucher with the rebrand a few years back. x

Re: PDSA

Kate Claxton DipAVN(Med)VN — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:19:05 GMT

Angiy - they are talking about the PDSA Green Form system, which can be used at any private vet when the eligible client isn't geographically close to either a PetAid hospital or PetAid practice. My first practice in Warrington used them quite regularly. Client pays the first £40 initially, then PDSA assess the treatment and give a contribution to assist with the rest of the bill, client then settles the remainder. It always used to be that PDSA paid up to £100 but only if the bill went over £100. It's a nightmare of a system as the client assumes all the bill is then settled, whereas the system is supposed to only cover emergency treatment for people in dire financial need. They did talk about abolishing the Green Form system ages ago but it's obviously still going strong! Unlike PetAid it doesn't require pre-registration of a pet which seems in contradiction of all the 'responsible pet ownership' info the PDSA is stressing at the mo.

Re: PDSA

Angiy Michael — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 02:36:45 GMT

Although just realised this may be a PetAid Practice we are talking about rather than a normal hospital

Re: PDSA

Angiy Michael — Sun, 19 Jul 2009 02:35:50 GMT

Just as an aside this isn't normal PDSA practice at all...no hospital would ever do this..they don't work this way in term of how they use their funds normally so this is either a one of or you are confused with a differen't charity which I think is more likely. The RSPCA will sometimes help in this way but the main charty to offer help like this is Tail Waggers Trust...to be fair the owner may even have said PDSA as half the public can't tell them apart

Re: PDSA

Katy — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:34:01 GMT

What some people don't realise is the most the PDSA will usually pay is about £120 and this is only in exceptional circumstances apparently.

Can't blame them really as there is only so much money to go round.

Re: PDSA

les punton — Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:13:11 GMT

we had a pdsa dog who was on chemo, the client was really lovely and donated approx £50 every time she was in however I thought that this was a good donation so i did not feel so bad about this treatment, however our vets would try to deter in this situation

Re: PDSA

Fiona Leathers — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:34:07 GMT

Having followed this thread, I am assuming the client applied for and received the PDSA Green Form. Many clients are under the wrong impression that once they have received this green form, they no longer are liable for the bill. In fact, they most pay for the first £40 of treatment, PDSA will only pay a percentage of the bill and they are still liable for the rest.

PDSA will not pay out on treatment which has already been paid for.

The amount of times I have clients saying "We've only to pay £40 and then the PDSA will pay the rest" or "PDSA have told me not to pay anything"

If the PDSA are going to continue this scheme, and I hope they do, as many animals require it, then they need to sort out something better than the actual procedure. Not knowing how much they will give is a nightmare! It oftens leaves us with bad debts which could have been avoided.

I would like them to have a percentage system, eg if you spend £100 we will give 15%, so you know you can claim the other 85% from the client.

PDSA is essential to some of my clients but we don't push it to all - however we have a vet nearby who has the PDSA scheme but often tells clients to come to us. I phoned the PDSA and asked why our area couldn't have the same scheme & they told us that we should write a note of interest to head office and they would look into it - then they wrote back and said there wasn't enough demand ????? SO 10 miles away there's a PDSA scheme that sends folk to us but with us there's not enough demand ???? Doesn't make sense.

Anyway thats enough of rant about PDSA beaucracy!! I agree with the tag line "If you can't afford the vet, then you can't afford the pet". I think animals should be like cars and legally require insurance & a microchip.........If I ruled the world!!!

Re: PDSA

Kim Buckley — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:20:28 GMT

I didn't start this thread to complain about the PDSA. I just can't believe that they paid out for chemotherapy.

My practice allow people credit and they had set up a payment scheme for this dog which had been agreed from the beginning of the treatment and they had been made aware of the costs. If the owners wanted the treatment for their dog and they were willing to pay the bill at the end of it then fine. I just don't agree that after the dog was put to sleep they then decide to try and get some of their bill paid off by a charity.

Re: PDSA

Kim Buckley — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 07:09:50 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]

I cannot comment on the paying for a private cremation, though I would sincerely doubt that. Certainly that has never been done in the practice where I work. The client and the cremation company deal with each other, we do not get involved, we just provide a collection point for the cremation company.

Seeing PDSA as insurance - PDSA do have an insurance company - maybe that is what the client was talking about?

I mean, if the client is eligible for PSDA help, why would they go to a private practice?

[/quote]

The client doesn't live in an area where there is a PDSA hospital so they had to come to us. We do have a lot of clients who are on benefits and I just happened to be saying how I didn't agree with the PDSA paying for chemotherapy when one of the vets said that one of her clients got them to pay for an individual cremation and she showed me the records and they had!

I'm not slating the PDSA because I think they do a great job and if I lived near one of their hospitals then I would love to work there as I can imagine it being a very interesting and rewarding job, I just don't agree with them paying out in these cases.

Re: PDSA

Saskia Quinn — Wed, 15 Jul 2009 06:17:45 GMT

In response to LoobyLou,

What I said was, the thread was initially started as complaining about PDSA - I didnt say you were complaining.

I dont think it was right or fair that the client agreed to the treatment, knowing they were unable to afford it. Its quite possible they were distraught at the news and were just trying to do what was best for the dog. However, I also think the Vet in questions should have or could have, discussed approximate cost with them, before any treatment began, and gave them the options.

I am not saying the vet didnt do that, because I dont know.

Re: PDSA

Vicky RVN — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:59:18 GMT

I do wonder what i'd do if my dog had cancer. Would i use chemo? I don't know. We did it on a patient a few months back, and it only prolonged his life by a few weeks. Is it fair to put them through it? I like to think that i'd make the decision based on the dog, not me wanting to keep hold of him for longer. My feelings now is that if (god forbid) he did have the dreaded 'c' i'd start chemo but if he was too stressed whilst it was carried out/he had side affects which made him suffer i'd stop. But i just don't know without it happening. It made me think as well when my nan passed away from cancer. She knew she had lumps developing but told nobody, they were only discovered when the doctor was examining her and found them. She made that decision that she wanted no more surgery or other treatments, so she kept it hidden until it was too late. From diagnosis to her passing away was only about a month (the cancer had spread to many major organs). The point i'm trying to make is, she chose to not have treatment because she didn't want to go through it. So should we make animals go through it when prognosis is poor?

Anyway, sorry have rambled on. Am tired and probably talking crap.

Re: PDSA

loobylou — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:41:59 GMT

I wasn't complaining about the PDSA, think they do some brilliant work, my 'beef' was with the original vet providing the client with treatment they couldnt afford and then falling back on the PDSA to foot the bill. I agree that each animal should get the best treatment available but unfortunately in our line of work there will always be financial restraints.
Do you think it was fair of the client to agree to treatment they couldn't afford, which wasnt just a few hundred pounds, and then expect the charities/ private practice to cover the cost.? Im a big believer in not getting a pet if you can't afford the treatment. I think a good point was made about the difference that money could have made when used for preventative treatments.

Re: PDSA

Sal the 1st — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:41:09 GMT

in an ideal world every human and every animal would get the best treatment available and there would be no need to worry about costs and who was going to pay - but until then.....

Re: PDSA

Saskia Quinn — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:32:23 GMT

Everyone will have different opinions on this topic.

However, my concern at the end of the day is the demeanour and well being of the animal at all times. Period.

And, I say again, if it were my animal, I would have went with the judgement of my surgeon at that time - had they decided chemotherapy was the best form of treatment for the type/extent of the cancer - then thats what I would have done.

We do not know how an animal will cope with such intensive treatment - we only find out if we try, who's to say the animal would have got a lot sicker? as well as a lot better? We simply cannot know.

I believe, the surgeon in question, acted in the best interest of that particular animal at that particular time.

This thread was originally posted to complain about the PDSA.

Im my own, honest opinion, a lot of animals would be suffering unnecessarily, if it wasnt for the PDSA. Why base your views of them on one particular case? Think of the work they do on a daily basis for owners who simply could not afford it otherwise?

Re: PDSA

Sal the 1st — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:30:48 GMT

not shouting you down Nick or Saskia. I agree to providing the best choice of treatment - but in any treatment regime it also has to represent an affordable choice, and lets not forget this is the case already in human medicine.

Re: PDSA

loobylou — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:25:10 GMT

[quote user="SaskiaVN"]

Well, I guess the answer to that question lies with the vet in the private practice who instigated the treatment in the first place.

The treatment may not have been cost effective, and I guess it isnt in a lot of oncology cases as the animal likely has a grave prognosis - HOWEVER, the needs of the animal and the suffering must be first and foremost in everyone's mind at that time. After all, as Nick said in an earlier post, there has been a lot of developments in the treatment of oncology patients over the years and as the saying goes, 'we wont know until we try'

If it were my dog, I would have done the same - chemotherapy.

[/quote]

I absolutely agree its down to the individual vet and also each case should be assessed individually. Ive seen chemotherapy used a few times with good results so wasnt questioning the treatment. My point was that a big bill had been run up for a client who clearly couldnt pay and then they were turning to a charity, already under strain, to pick up the bill. I know that we wouldnt treat a patient with drugs/ regime which was outside the clients limits.

Re: PDSA

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:23:26 GMT

Totally agree with Saskia. At the end of the day I'm not the vet who treated that dog, but they must of decided that was the best form of treatment. And the advacements inc Radiotherapy (obviously not for this cancer), which is available at several practices throughout the UK

Re: PDSA

Sal the 1st — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:20:13 GMT

I agree with Loubyloo on this one -if it was down to me I wouldnt deny a patient treatment but I would have to look at what was in the best interests of the animal and the charity - say you spent £500 on one case with a pretty bad prognosis - how many more patients would benefit if those funds were spent say on vaccines?

I agree that chemo isnt always the only treatment palliative care could equally be steroids and analgesics - and as somebody who has been through chemo quite a few times now it isnt something that I would choose to put an animal through, tho this would not influence my decision.

Re: PDSA

Saskia Quinn — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:17:55 GMT

Well, I guess the answer to that question lies with the vet in the private practice who instigated the treatment in the first place.

If it were my dog, I would have done the same - chemotherapy.

Re: PDSA

loobylou — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:09:27 GMT

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]

[quote user="loobylou"]

I may sound harsh but why was the dog started on chemptherapy when the owners didnt have any money? Surely in this case palliative care should have been the way forward.
I dont agree with the PDSA paying out for a terminally ill dog.

[/quote]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but as far as I was aware palliative care would include chemo as well as various pain relief. the idea is to make the patient as comfortable and pain free as possible using various treatments, which may also include surgery to 'debulk' tumours. Until such a time that the day comes for euthanasia!

Surely this patient was eligible for treatment and therefore was given it!

[/quote]

Sorry I didnt mean the animal shouldn't get treatment, but if the clients had no money and were on benefits then why was such an expensive treatement started. The dog could have been kept comfortable on preds/ analgesics. I know that chemo can prolong lifespan but I dont think it was cost effective in this case.

Re: PDSA

Saskia Quinn — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:01:29 GMT

Our mission

To care for the pets of needy people by providing free veterinary services to their sick and injured animals and promoting responsible pet ownership.

Our Priorities

The fundamental long-term priorities for PDSA are:

To maintain PDSA PetAid charitable services in every community in which they are available on a stable, sustainable and long-term basis.
To expand PDSA PetAid charitable services in line with a clear and controlled business plan as widely as funds and circumstances permit.
To raise the public's perception and awareness of the work of PDSA in order to increase understanding and encourage funding for our work.
To deliver a varied programme of pet health initiatives that complements and supports the delivery of PetAid services.

That, is the mission of the PDSA.

Re: PDSA

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:53:36 GMT

May I also add that you don't know how a patient is going to react to chemo until you try it ie same do really well adding maybe 6-12 mths and even some make full recover. There have been some real advacements in onocolgy over the years.........

And although referral wasnt affordable, I'm sure one of the many specialist oncologist at any of the universities or many referral hospitals would of been happy to discuss the case and protocol to give the maxium effect

Re: PDSA

Saskia Quinn — Tue, 14 Jul 2009 21:47:56 GMT

yes, I agree with Nick.

And, following on from Nick's post;

Everyone facing life-threatening illness will need some degree of supportive care in addition to treatment for their condition.

Supportive care helps the patient and their family to cope with their condition and treatment of it – from pre-diagnosis, through the process of diagnosis and treatment, to cure, continuing illness or death and into bereavement. It helps the patient to maximise the benefits of treatment and to live as well as possible with the effects of the disease. It is given equal priority alongside diagnosis and treatment.

Now, that is the definition of pallative care in humans.

I cannot see how/why animals are any different