Acceptable behaviour?

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Siobhan Steven — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 07:41:51 GMT

So, the difference between the two preceding cases and this one (link below) are the intent to cause pain/damage?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/06/05/2009-06-05_evil_teen_who_tossed_cat_in_the_oven.html

The perpetrator of this crime is a minor, there have been studies conducted that conclude that cruelty to animals demonstrated at a young age can preclude cases of cruelty to people. And this girl has been released into the custody of her mother?! Doesn't appear she has done such a great job up to this point does it?

I'm not trying to equate any of these cases with each other, just presenting different yet similar situations which reinforces the necessity to asses each case on an individual basis. I just think there is a huge difference between an accident and ignorance/stupidity.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:28:35 GMT

Not at all. I said the same in each case - that the facts of both cases should be investigated and appropriate punishment carried out. My point with the police officer was that his superior officer said he has suffered already and that punishment wasn't necessary - which I disagree with. But I also suggested he should be suspended/fined etc - not lose his job. I happen to agree that this vet seems to have got away quite lightly - I do think the RCVS should have done more. But without knowing the facts.........

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:40:33 GMT

Gill your reply seems hypocritical when viewed against comments about the police office and as at the moment the facts in HIS case are not known you are very quick to kick him. In the vets case it seems so long as they have an excuse that is fine.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Samantha Palmer — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:37:06 GMT

[quote user="Mrs Dot Dot"]

It's not just animals that are negected/ treated badly.... what about all the really, really sad cases that are in the news or mostly not in the news, about child neglect/ cruelty/ sexual abuse etc ... do these people get punished enough?... children are just as innocent as animals and will keep putting up with continuing abuse until someone else does something about it or not, in a lot of cases till it's too late.

[/quote]

In answer to your question, no these people do not get punished enough. The law in regards to people is just as shocking as those set up to help animals. But that's a whole new conversation.

Maybe we should set up a VN government party and run against gordon brown next elections. lol.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Samantha Palmer — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:31:30 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Which specific cases are you referring to? Because in my experience the punishment usually fits the crime.

In so many cases of a vet making a mistake there is a sudden cry of 'they should be struck off' without those shouting having any comprehension of what that would mean to the vet involved.

[/quote]

There are plenty of cases of gross neglect and horrendous care that have only caused the vet to recieve a fine. I can't think of any at this time but i can ask at work tomorrow and get some exact ones if you like. I'm not saying a vet should lose their livelihood just because they made a small mistake. But I have known a few vets that have lost all compassion for the job, who lie, cover things up and generally couldn't give a monkeys. and I do not think these people should be practicing anymore.

If i screwed up and killed something, i hope the RCVS would strike me off, because i wouldn't be safe to do the job.

Where do you draw the line between a mistake and gross neglect and misconduct? Is the vet that left his dogs in the car really entitled to have it written off as a mistake? Or did he know that his dogs could die in the car and didn't take adequate provisions?

At the end of the day, two dogs died, both belonging to a well-educated individual and boiled to death. In my view, no amount of excuses will be good enough for me to take my pets to see a vet like that!

But I think, Gillian, in some cases you are right. People can be too quick to judge and bay for blood, no-one is perfect and a vet is bound to make a mistake at some point and people shouldn't automatically try to get them struck off. This vet with the dogs in the car hasn't done anything wrong in his job, so maybe shouldn't be struck off, but he should be tried for causing unnecessary cruelty and neglect to animals.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Emma Purnell — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:20:55 GMT

[quote user="heather mac"]

You are right Emma- never assume coz as the saying goes it make an ass out of u and me.

And yes we are all different, its what makes the world go round I guess. If we all agreed,felt the same,thought the same it would be a dull place.

[/quote]

Haha! Gave me a lunch giggle!

I do agree, but I could do without a few less of those idiots who think kicking kittens around in a box is fun....

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Mac Feather — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:15:05 GMT

You are right Emma- never assume coz as the saying goes it make an ass out of u and me.

And yes we are all different, its what makes the world go round I guess. If we all agreed,felt the same,thought the same it would be a dull place.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Emma Purnell — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:12:02 GMT

One thing I will quickly comment on, we can't compare how we feel as to how someone else feels - we may be distraught and very get over it but have any of you ever had a client in with an animal to be put to sleep who showed no concern at all? Or people who are wilfully cruel to animals? Their feelings are very different and we just need to bear that in mind.

Will they REALLY be distraught over it as you or I would be?

Maybe in this case they will, but we cannot assume.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Anonymous — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:53:05 GMT

Thank you for making your point so well and kicking some ridiculous arguements into touch! I was beginning to loose faith in the fact that the majority of nurses care deeply for animal welfare and would find this inexcusable and the actions, or lack of, of the RCVS total indefensable and almost to the point of condoning this level of care......Well if they have not condemd it....!

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Mac Feather — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:42:55 GMT

Youre right Fi, I cannot type at the best of times! Im an all round goof ball.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Fiona Leathers — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:39:18 GMT

what?? only today you can't type???

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Mac Feather — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:36:49 GMT

I meant offend! Cant even type properly today!

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Mac Feather — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:36:19 GMT

Sorry Siobhan, I didnt mean to offen you. Was only commenting off the top of my head.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Siobhan Steven — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:49:00 GMT

I didn't say 'strike him off', I said maybe he should prove he can hold his position. I wasn't commenting on the police dog incident. And it may 'eat you up', as it would me, but you can't assume thats what will happen with everyone. Lessons won't be learnt if incidents like this are swept under the carpet after thier '15 minutes of fame.' Forgiving lot the human race...

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Mac Feather — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:32:56 GMT

Well I feel that the vet and the police dog handlers will have to live with it for the rest of their days and thats quite a punishment. I f it was me it would eat me up. As for striking people off etc I cant comment coz I really do not know all the facts, all I can say is it its tragic and I hope that lessons are learnt from it.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Siobhan Steven — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:52:42 GMT

Personally I feel the pervading philosophy here is 'if someone in the animal care industry can't look after their own animals who can?' We see so much neglect and ignorance we'd like to think someone who is qualified in the field,considered to be of reasonable intelligence and a responsible human being we wouldn't see it from them under any circumstances. Then when the governing bodies are lax in their judgment in these cases we are left to hurl our hands in the air and say 'whats the point?'. I am not being presumptuous as to the circumstances of this case, he was not ignorant, he is an 'expert' in the field of providing suitable care for animals, maybe he isn't suited to the profession? His business partner, thankfully, was principled enough to have a 'falling out' with him over the issue and they no longer work together, is that not telling enough?

I DO think he should loose his position as a vet, he may have to perform some form of service to prove that he has the correct principles and integrity to regain his place in the industry, because the pervading social attitude of going lightly on those that do wrong only serves to reinforce the concept of 'you do wrong, and there are no consequences.'

We expect high standards of certain levels of society, rightly or wrongly, if you choose to become a professional in your field, be it doctor, vet, police officer, teacher et al you will be expected to uphold the high standards of your profession.

On another note some of the gormless comments at the end of the article make me wonder about the level of intelligence of some people, for example, the concern of travelling in a car for six hours vs leaving a dog ALONE in a car for six hours, A car being driven by a moderatly intelligent person on a hot day would no doubt have the air conditioner on, stress levels on the passengers (dogs) would be easily detected and a break taken when necessary. And the charming Peter Hastings who seems to think allowing an animal to 'cook' to death is somehow comparible to slaughter of animals for consumption is an idiot! And lets face it, that is a whole other issue.

Every summer we have stories on the news/ current affairs shows here re warning people of the dangers of leaving animals/children in cars in summer, this from a 'kidsafe' (Australian) website:

Tests conducted by Ambulance Victoria on a 29 degree day with the car's air conditioning having cooled the interior to a comfortable 20 degrees showed it took just 10 minutes for the temperature to more than double to 44 degrees and in a further 10 minutes it had tripled to a deadly 60.2 degrees. Leaving the window down a few centimetres does little.

Lets face it, if this guy hadn't shown any remorse for his actions, which seems to be the basis of his 'getting off', he'd be a pretty sad example of our species on any level. For that to be the catalyst for his light punishment, or lack thereof I think its rediculous.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 00:13:59 GMT

[quote user="Samantha Palmer"]As for the RCVS, I've always found them to be far too soft on vets who do things badly wrong. They always will be, they're vets themselves.[/quote]

Which specific cases are you referring to? Because in my experience the punishment usually fits the crime.

In so many cases of a vet making a mistake there is a sudden cry of 'they should be struck off' without those shouting having any comprehension of what that would mean to the vet involved. You would be taking away someone's livelihood for the rest of their life! Is that reasonable if the case is due to an accident/poor judgement? I'd absolutely agree that if a vet knowingly and deliberately caused animal suffering then they aren't suitable for this career. But in this case the vet made a mistake. He shouldn't have left the dogs in the car all day in the heat. He should be punished - the same as anyone else - by an enquiry, possibly a suspension, certainly a fine. But take away the career he has worked extremely hard for? Leave someone unable to earn a living (what else is a vet trained for that doesn't require an MRCVS?) That could destroy both the vet and their family.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Mrs Dot Dot — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 23:15:44 GMT

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Samantha Palmer — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 18:06:07 GMT

Ranting with people who get what your saying helps I think. As much as most un-veterinary people will disagree, a lot of animals are not treated as well in this country as they should be.

So many people screw up in a way that I would consider awful, yet nothing ever comes of it, no punishment, nothing. What's to stop those people out there doing it again?

There was once a rabbit that came into practice. The owner had had it for a year and hadn't noticed it had a ring on its leg. The leg went badly necrotic and it started eating its own leg. It mustve been bad for a good few months before the owners noticed and brought it in. Again, owners upset. Again, hadn't noticed. Again, not an excuse. How hadn't they noticed? It had no flesh left, it was yellow, and it stank! Same thing. Ignorance and neglect.

And the vet told the owners not to worry, it wasn't there fault. It was!!! Brings me back to my point, how will people learn if its that easy to get off the hook after they've done something so awful??

More ranting... lol

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Fleabee99 — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:57:20 GMT

[quote user="Samantha Palmer"]

People need to start paying attention. Would you leave your child in a hot car? No. Then why do it to your dog? What people do doesn't matter to me, but when animals are dying out of neglect and ignorance, I find it disgusting.

[/quote]

my thoughts exactly, why is it that an animal dying is not taken seriously but if it was a child all hell would break loose, i know a guy that went to my college who crashed his car while speeding and his best friend died because of it and he went to jail for manslaughter so why cant people be held responsible when its an animal that dies, we as humans are no more important than any other species, and people who do believe they are better than animals need to crawl out of their own *** and take a breath

rant over ....

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Samantha Palmer — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:44:55 GMT

Maybe the subject shouldn't be if dogs should be left in cars, maybe the subject should be whether or not ignorance is an excuse. If it's not dogs boiling to death in hot cars, its cats dying of kidney failure and the owner putting it down to old age, or its rabbits with preventable dental problems due to poor diet.

I would not leave a dog in a car, but if someone is very careful and ensures it is not too hot then I guess there can be no argument. Only last week a dog died in the practice after being in a hot car for an hour, it was so hot it burnt my hand when i touched it. It was disturbing for anyone who loves animals to watch that. The owner was distraught and i felt so sorry for him. But at the end of the day it may not have been his 'fault' but it was 100% avoidable.

I do not think blame pointing helps, and i think the idea of educating people on their animals is wonderful, and i try to do it. But at the same time i think that owners need to start being responsible for their animals and stop saying 'oh, well, i didnt know' because, as an owner, its your job to know. You can't expect VNs to be able to tell you everything.

As for the vet, they should have known better. They can't even use ignorance as an excuse. They knew what could happen and it made no difference.

As for the RCVS, I've always found them to be far too soft on vets who do things badly wrong. They always will be, they're vets themselves.

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Fleabee99 — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:30:24 GMT

[quote user="Vicky C"]

I agree Sarah, you never know what will happen. The only time i've left Jack is outside a shop so i could go in and buy him a paddling pool (which he doesn't use!). I would feel awful if someone broke in to steal him. I do understand some people have reasons for doing it, but wouldn't do it myself. I would also NEVER leave him tied up outside a shop - far too easy for someone to hit/kick/steal him.

[/quote]

my thoughts exactly, i have horrible images of some d*ckhead crashing into the car while your in the shop, stealing your pet, etc, i understand other people may do it but personally i never would

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Vicky RVN — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:24:36 GMT

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Fleabee99 — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:18:03 GMT

personally i would never leave an animal in a car alone no matter what the weather, you dont know what could happen while your away and secondly why could he not put the dogs in the kennels in the practice? as thats what all our vets do

anyone who puts there animals in the car alone does so at their own risk but they should also be aware of the consequences i.e. in winter it would be too cold and in summer too warm, and im sorry but i personally think a caution is not good enough because if a client walked in to a practice looking particularly rough and spelt the same story every person in the place would be kicking off behind their back!

just because hes a vet they/we shouldnt assume he cares about animals, i know many vets who dont

Re: Acceptable behaviour?

Vicky RVN — Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:29:47 GMT

People just need to be more careful, be it vets, dog handlers or the general public. Everyone needs to be aware of the problems that can arise and take it into consideration when leaving their dog in a car. Maybe more needs to be done to make people aware, and even if they know what can happen, something needs to make them think about it more. By tv, radio, bill board posters, whatever it takes to make people think and remind them of the risk.