Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

loopylou711 — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 16:33:27 GMT

[quote user="loopylou711"]

[quote user="Emma Clark"]

[quote user="loopylou711"]

[quote user="albatross"]Getting a TP/ATP place in the 2nd year, getting so little practical training (but then degree students say they get 10 days but no-one rants about them when they take them on, but everyone is (rightly so) ranting about the new students who will ONLY have 5 weeks training), .[/quote]

I have to disagree with you on this one albatross... the words degree student scare practices. Infact degree students spend their time begging practices to let them work for free and when you get there you are deemed useless for a few weeks and eventually allowed to do things. My exprience anyways. Also would like to say practice don't like degree student because of the little practical exprience but also all the paper work which comes with a degree student. My opinion anyways!

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I trained via the degree route, i didn;t find a problem getting placements, and those who did the problems related to competing with spaces with the other degree nurses because practices could only take on so many of us in the local area. In all of the placements i had that were decent vets i was asked what my limits were and allowed to get stuck in straight away. Maybe i was just lucky but others on my course also enjoyed their placement and by no means felt that they were deemed useless. Some practices also made requests for certain students to return. So i think it all depends on the practice and the individual student.

I do think that the new proposals are ridiculous though, i would be useless if i'd only ever had 5 weeks practical work during my degree training. We have a few students here that worked full time before starting their training and they are still developing practical skills alongside their knowledge, you can know the theory inside out but it doesn't mean you can put it into practice. What if those 5 weeks were in a quiet practice where you didn;t encounter hardly anything you learnt about at college?

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What university did you train at?

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Sorry just check your profile and I se you wre at midlesex.... napier uni for me and I thinka you said its the quality of practice you get to train at I had a friend who trained in a practice that was always quite and hated and has also since left the degree, and a friend who ended up in the pdsa and loved it and is still loving it! But for me I was placed in Newcastle despite living in Glasgow... as you can imagine the training was great the being away from home was horrible!! Anyways I go off topic of this thread, If i was made to look at equine nursing as part of my training don't think I would cope to be honest and not scared of them just would really rather not!!!

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

loopylou711 — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 16:28:53 GMT

[quote user="Emma Clark"]

[quote user="loopylou711"]

[/quote]

What university did you train at?

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Louise B — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 15:51:24 GMT

[quote user="Fluffy"]

2. Farm an equine - just wind me up and let me go. That will make placements very difficult for city practices and counties that are not as rural as some - i live in Surrey and it is very much a green and pleasant land but not alot of farms as for equine well alot of people are terrified of horses and that doesn't mean they should be excluded from nursing.

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Very good point. I already know of a vet who qualified overseas but cannot practice over here as a vet as she has a phobia about horses and I believe she had to go through some process with the RCVS which would involve horses. She practices as a nurse now for that reason.

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Emma Clark — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 14:14:54 GMT

[quote user="loopylou711"]

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Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Catherine Goulding — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 13:01:01 GMT

[quote user="sal the 1st"]

couldnt joe public be asked what they want as well

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Speaking from personal experience of someone who has posted comments on a non vet forum with regard to this very topic, I have to say that the majority of joe public don't care at all who is nursing their pet - they just want the fees to be lower. They don't understand the job of a veterinary nurse and just tthink that all we do all day is cuddle fluffy animals, so I would say no, don't ask them....

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Sal the 1st — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 21:00:08 GMT

maybe I am being a bit dim or a bit too simplistic but couldnt joe public be asked what they want as well,after all it is their pets that are being nursed. Would they be satisfied with the experience/expertise/maturity of trainee nursing staff if proposals go ahead

as I say maybe a bit too simplistic - but I have been away for a long time and it has taken me ages to read this thread!

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 20:29:16 GMT

I got a reply back today, so I hope all you guys have put in letters of complaint.

It was a really nice letter too

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Helen Freer — Thu, 08 Oct 2009 20:27:18 GMT

Albatross

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

loopylou711 — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 20:02:41 GMT

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

A Little TLC — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 17:09:51 GMT

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

albatross — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:43:28 GMT

I am in agreement with a lot that has been posted but please can everyone writing in to the RCVS not just say NO to the new idea, but have some great constructive ideas as to how to change the current system.
For me and so many others like me, the current system IS unworkable. When you have very few TP's who actually take on students now, and don't advertise even when they do because they have so many people waiting to get a place, the system DOES NOT WORK!.

WE NEED JOBS!!!!! or otherwise some method where we can get noticed as the excellent,caring, conscientious, hard-working students-to-be that we are but no-one notices, or wants to employ for financial reasons etc!!

To be able to get a foot on the ladder is all we ask - as I have mentioned many times, it's taken me 3 1/2 years to get where I am, and I lost my student placement through no fault of my own (just lack of money within the practice) after just three months.

Believe me it's so demoralising it's driving me nuts trying to get noticed, and yet I see people getting places just like that in certain parts of the country.
I know that I will make a bl***dy good nurse but now can't see the day that will ever happen, and will probably give up if the rules don't change, or change for the worse even.

Yes the new idea is probably also unworkable for many reasons - getting onto the college course will be the new stumbling block instead of getting into a TP (there aren't many colleges doing the nursing courses and that's not going to increase for September 2010, nor are you suddenly going to magic loads of new teachers overnight). Getting a TP/ATP place in the 2nd year, getting so little practical training (but then degree students say they get 10 days but no-one rants about them when they take them on, but everyone is (rightly so) ranting about the new students who will ONLY have 5 weeks training), students probably having to pay for the course themselves especially if not in work, older students who are already in jobs and who won't be given 2 days a week off to go to college......

I hear a lot of people complaining that if we come to "your" practice to train as a 2nd year, we would perhaps only have 5 weeks practical experience (then have 4/5 of a year in the second year before we become qualified nurses). But with the current rules, anyone can walk in from school with no experience at all and start to train....... so surely 5 weeks plus theory knowledge would be a better starting point for your practice (remember I have 3+ years practical training experience but only 3 months of that in a TP, but I'm still not attractive enough except for a handful of you to offer me interviews or jobs).

But what we need to tell the RCVS is ways they can do the reverse - keep the rules for length of practical and theory service the same as now, but allow us poor old SVN's in waiting, to go to somewhere to start training without it having to be a TP, or to worry about how much the practices are spending to train people. Give TP's (and the new ATP's) funding to train us, and so we don't have to wait for dead-mans-shoes to be able to get places..or allow us to do the college part first and then we ought to have a priority on TP places if we've shown we're good students.

Everyone who is an assessor in a TP, please tell the RCVS what will work for you, or rather, what would make you take on more of us poor lost souls!!! Why don't you take on students any more, or less than you did etc. Or perhaps it's much more simple - you will never take more of us on because your business doesn't need more staff until another member moves on, and then maybe the assessor has left or the paperwork is too onerous and therefore you de-register (or just go quiet for a few years) as a TP?
In which case then the answer to that is only to make TP's academy's where you get cheap labour, we get the training, then we part amicably.....(and that's something the RCVS could do by paying part of our wages or training, perhaps?)

If someone could only devise a poll nationally to find out how many people are looking for places in a TP, and what length of practical/theory experience they have, and then find out how many TP places there really are available this year and last/next year, then there would be proof of where the problem lies.

Yes there is a big problem in the scrapping of NVQ's which is Government led, but there's also a very big problem with lack of qualified nurses, and everyone needs to pull together to address it and come to some sort of compromise.

WE NEED PLACES TO TRAIN!!!!

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

A Little TLC — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:23:12 GMT

Here here, this new jobby is just going to mess me up completely....

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Laura Ringsell — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 16:11:53 GMT

I also have huge reservations with this and agree with everything posted by us nurses as reasons to be concerened.

For me there are a number of issues:

1. I don't believe a year full time education is the way to go - how many practices currently find that after 3 months students decide that it is just not the job they were expecting, all romantic notions gone in the washing machine with another lot of V+/D+ - this will only delay the enevitable and then there is the question of how are these people salaried? Although I qualified a few years back now I beleive that day release an hands on training gave me the best possible start and a great base to work on from. Our training is considered to be the best - please let's not make it laughable

3. Is this change for change sake - what is really wrong with the current system and why can't any problems just be ironed out and improved on.

I am so pleased that i am qualified and not wondering how this is going to affect me and pleased that my student is going o get thru the system before any change. I feel so sorry for those of you waiting to get started and wondering what the future holds.

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Kerry Spain — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 12:37:00 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]

Kezza, I hope you have put your letter of annoyance in.......... we wont get anwhere and the A1's will be null and void unless you state you are not amused

Go on get your anger out on them that count!!

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oooooooooh yes I have a letter in progress, can't send it off yet as I keep thinking about something new to rant about every day lol

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 01:01:07 GMT

Kezza, I hope you have put your letter of annoyance in.......... we wont get anwhere and the A1's will be null and void unless you state you are not amused

Go on get your anger out on them that count!!

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Kerry Spain — Wed, 07 Oct 2009 00:09:03 GMT

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]

Kerry the A1 assessors qualification is entirely for assessing NVQ and NVQ only. So they would need to develop a completely new qualification for 'mentors'

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Hi chuck yes I know that and now they are proposing that we won't be needed as 'assessors' so that will mean the A1 goes out the window. Instead they want 'Mentours' but this can be anyone with experience, so what if you have an older vet or nurse, who yes granted has experience but maybe none in training a student? This just reminds me of the old green book days where and from experience I say this, the experienced members of staff didn't give a toss about my training and just used to fob me off and sign off the book anyway as it was too much of a chore to actually teach me. At least with the A1 assessors we are regulated to some extent and all trained to the same standard. I don't see how they can regulate the so called mentours.

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Nick Shackleton — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:02:58 GMT

Kerry the A1 assessors qualification is entirely for assessing NVQ and NVQ only. So they would need to develop a completely new qualification for 'mentors'

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Kirsty Gwynne — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:27:32 GMT

We can and we will!!

This is a time when all nurses, ANA's, Vets, Practice Principals need to and must do all that they can to put their feelings and opinions forward. The RCVS cannot implement change like this if the profession do not like or want it. Remember that we are all members, registered nurses and students to the RCVS - basic constitutional rules say that they cannot go against a majority vote. If they do then a case of 'no confidence' can be bought against them.

See where we can go with this!!

The nursing profession I hate to say this have in the past buried their head in the sands and not replied to previous council elections etc etc - but this is a time that nurses have to stop being andostrich and think that it is a done deal and be apathetic about - come on all - get reactive and proactive!!!!!

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 16:38:06 GMT

I have forwarded my letter to the poor soul who has the unfortunate job of taking all this on the chin before swiftly ignoring all our pleas and doing as they dam well like anyway.

But , and its a small but, if we all get those letters in maybe we can stop this travesty.

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

A Little TLC — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:15:28 GMT

I'm so confuddled by it all I read some, understand, read more, get lost in my brain.... I'm embarrassed of myself......

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Kerry Spain — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 14:34:23 GMT

ok... here goes

25 days is clearly not enough, I think we all agree with that

'Mentours' can be anybody with experience? So anyone with or studying towards the A1 qualification will become null and void basically. Hows about they implement something to turn the A1 qualification into a 'Mentour'/ teaching qualification?? This would then stop older members of staff (who are probably rusty in the art of getting a student motivated and learning) posing as Mentours and the trained A1 assessors wouldn't have worked towards a qualification for the last few years which is not worth the paper it is written on. I think it's just another way of taking qualifications/ pay and responsibility from us to be honest.

They address in the review that the national shortage of VN's should be addressed but if they listened to us in the first place and put in place regulations to say that employers can't take the piss out of us and get away with paying us a pittence, then more VN's would be inclined to stay in the profession, therefore (and it's not rocket science) there would be no need to come up with such a ridiculous proposal for fast tracking students.

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Kirsty Gwynne — Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:42:55 GMT

For everyone who is interested in veterinary nursing training (hopefully that is everyone who is a RVN, VN, SVN etc etc!!) if you do not like or aggree with the proposals that the RCVS are planning then you must write or email them no later than the 31st of October. If there is not enough replies to the consultation with your points then we know that the proposals will be carried forward and will be implemented as from the next accademic year.

To end this note - reply in big numbers and change can and will occur - do not reply and we must then accept what has been proposed and not complain.

I have very clearly put my points to the RCVS - hope you will too!

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Maisy — Sun, 04 Oct 2009 12:14:41 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"] drop the standards for TP's but the VN must display knowledge and understanding, cut out the crap in the folio that is nulll and void, and a waste of paper but practical training to me is first and foremost.If you are practised in your chosen field, no amount of reading without practice will make you better.

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Completely agree. The proposed first year means that potential students may be fine with the theoretical knowledge of nursing a patient, but would they have the nursing skills gained with experience to think about other nursing aspects to keep that patient happy? Or understanding the use/important of continuity in patient care? I know this was one of the concerns about when the degree first came about, and it seems like the profession will be taking a backwards step. While there may be more qualified nurses, there could be some concern over the practical skills they have gained.

Maybe the thought should be more why are qualifed VNs leaving the profession, rather than changing the layout of training so much.

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 23:24:46 GMT

Personally I think they have went from one extreme to another and back agin in the training of Vn's

First we had the green book.............. not enough evidence of capability IMO, then we had the dreaded portfolio.............. ok plenty evidence, but not enough practices participating......... now we have EXTREME THEORY lets write about what should happen..... give me a bloody break, we all know that never happens>>>>>>>>>> get a bloody grip, why not meet somewhere in the middle, you know it's the sensible thing to do..... drop the standards for TP's but the VN must display knowledge and understanding, cut out the crap in the folio that is nulll and void, and a waste of paper but practical training to me is first and foremost.If you are practised in your chosen field, no amount of reading without practice will make you better.

Re: Veterinary nursing qualifications under review

loopylou711 — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 23:21:05 GMT

[quote user="loobylou"]

I didnt realise it was only 10 days, that shocks me

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Scary isn't it? I mean they say 2 weeks which is 10 working days! I did the degree for 2 years, and got 6 months exp within the degree. But was in practice after 7 weeks of being in uni! Scared the hell out of me and practices end up confused as to what you can and can't do!

Also another point is those 10 days are watching not doing.... so no hands on practical exprience of handling animals, unless you count a cuddly toy as exprience!!

Ahh my hatred towards the degree runs deeps... ***takes a deep breath"""