Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Lorri Jackson — Thu, 01 Aug 2024 13:44:47 GMT

Personally I think the advanced practitioner RVN is the way to go. I work in a referral hospital and we are fully supportive of this next move to help RVNS to advance in their careers and be recognised for it. However as with the human nurse practitioner there has to be some set criteria and further certification involved. The University of Glasgow offers an MSc in advanced veterinary nursing. This is an option with a specialist module in their chosen genre I. E. Neurology, nutrition, oncology, soft tissue etc. Or there are plenty of courses out there offering advanced education in specific aspects. The advanced practitioner nurse will open up another avenue of opportunity for RVNS and I am rather excited to see it take place. It doesn't have to have anything to do with diagnosis or prescribing but for example having the autonomy to make a decision about the patient based on knowledge training and expertise, but not diagnosing. Running your own clinics etc. Wound management or tissue viability is a perfect example.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Dan Lidgbird — Sat, 20 Jul 2024 11:07:06 GMT

I think this would really increase RVN retention. In regards to the concern of being in charge of a case, as long as the training is thorough and the clinician know that they are responsible then, personally I would have no issues being held responsible for my clinical decisions.
I would love it if the RCVS did allow this but I think, sadly, it is wishful thinking

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Charley83 — Sat, 20 Jul 2024 09:51:46 GMT

Interesting, but having been a human nurse practitioner where I was fully responsible for clinical assessment, ordering diagnostic tests, diagnosing and treating./prescribing independently without the need to see a doctor - I loved it but if something happens its my registration that is brought into question and I can get stuck off not the doctor. If RVNS want extra responsibibilty then accountabilty will need to be changed from vets being in charge of a case, I really can't see the RCVS doing that, would be great if they did and maybe RVN retention would improve as unless go into practice management or head nurse, high level career opportunities are limited. What will the criteria be - I had to have a minimum of a Masters degree .

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 13:30:48 GMT

[quote userid="47003" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178692#178692"]Ahhh gutted! Just changed the settings on my profile![/quote]

Bad luck, but you'll be in the running from now on, then!

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Dan Lidgbird — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 13:05:26 GMT

Ahhh gutted! Just changed the settings on my profile!

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 11:41:37 GMT

[quote userid="10972" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178683#178683"]I'm not sure how your numbers stack up there? It should be very possible to pay the vet and nurse bloody well if they are turning over £15-20K in a day doing a handful of TPLOs. That might be a month of hard graft for a vet doing more typical, lower cost, consults/ops.[/quote]

Nor am I.

But I am not suggesting anything quite as binary as you seem to be.

My theory is that if, in a consultation, you help owners reduce costs, then you should be paid more for the consultation which has helped them achieve that. So again, its not a comparison between a handful of TPLOs and current consultation fees, but rather a comparison between doing fewer TPLOS and more consultations at a higher price.

PS Dan Lidgbird I wanted to give you a £50 Amazon Voucher for this question (see https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/p/questions), but you need to display your real name and practice, and ideally year of qualification to qualify. Bear in mind for next post!

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Dan Lidgbird — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 11:26:19 GMT

If there were to be more qualifications added, there is no reason that this could not be at a higher level. As long as the entry requirement is to be a Registered Veterinary Nurse, and not FdSc or BSc then the course could be level 5 or 6. Human nurses currently have to do a masters to be able to be ANP. I truly believe that further qualifications would give more job satisfaction.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Dan Lidgbird — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 11:23:28 GMT

The VSA is currently under review, now is the time to act.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Dan Lidgbird — Wed, 03 Jul 2024 11:22:54 GMT

I do not think that my qualification was harder to obtain than other qualifications, but I do believe that general members of the public do think that they are able to treat animals with their knowledge. I would not have the foggiest idea how to fly a plane, whereas Joe Bloggs on the street may think, and try to treat an animal. I think that protecting the title would better protect animal welfare, and the standard of Veterinary care given to animals.

Whilst pay and benefits are an important consideration, I do believe that being happy and fulfilled in your work can be just as vital. I am happy in my current role, I am paid a good salary, and I am able to do the things I would like to do. If someone currently gave me the choice I would choose more clinical responsibility over a pay rise.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

apache — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 23:06:47 GMT

[quote userid="65929" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178678#178678"]Just out of interest, are you implying that the diploma route is less worthwhile than degree, or that those who use that route are lesser nurses? [/quote]

Absolutely not, I think you would be mad choosing the more academic route (with huge cost and less time spent practising the vital clinical skills) versus the diploma to end up in the exact same position. The barrier, I see, is the decision to set the diploma route at level 3 so the same academic level as A-levels. I personally think it would sit better at level 5, but was told its to do with funding (a degree is level 6 for context). I'd be amazed if anyone in any of the medical professions was given the ability to diagnose at that academic level.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178667#178667"]with less emphasis on high cost procedures and treatments, and more on fundamental basics, reducing the overall cost to owners and perhaps allowing for vets and nurses to therefore be paid more.[/quote]

I'm not sure how your numbers stack up there? It should be very possible to pay the vet and nurse bloody well if they are turning over £15-20K in a day doing a handful of TPLOs. That might be a month of hard graft for a vet doing more typical, lower cost, consults/ops.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Clare Marsh — Sun, 30 Jun 2024 08:28:07 GMT

[quote userid="10972" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178666#178666"]I also think it's very unlikely when there remains a diploma/apprentice route into the profession. [/quote]

Just out of interest, are you implying that the diploma route is less worthwhile than degree, or that those who use that route are lesser nurses? Genuinely interested.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 28 Jun 2024 13:21:04 GMT

[quote userid="11854" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178665#178665"]Arlo Guthrie, I am curious to know if clients would be happy to see a vet nurse and for them to diagnose conditions.[/quote]

I'm sure some would already be happy, and some not. Hard to know without some proper research.

I was just thinking to myself about how much a protected title adds to the kudos, and the nearest parallel I can think of is Architect, which is protected, vs architectural designer, who are sort of architects without the qualification, and sometimes as good as architects, but the title is not protected.

In that case, yes, I do hold architects in higher regard. Perhaps unfairly so on occasion (because some architectural designers are as good as or better than architects).

[quote userid="10972" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178666#178666"]They can/will never protect the term nurse as it's a verb/noun in common use in our language. [/quote]

apache nurse is, 'veterinary nurse' isn't. I suspect it can be protected because it is a more specific term than 'nurse'.

[quote userid="11854" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178665#178665"]I do agree, it would give us more respect and yes, maybe higher pay but I also see your point with everything that is happening in the vet world at present, this may not be taken positively by some.[/quote]

The big question is 'who is going to pay for it'.

My theory is that the profession as a whole has been so focussed on clinical excellence for some years, that is has slightly lost sight of affordability (aided and abetted by insurance). And as vets and nurses salaries and working benefits have increased, so the whole shebang has got a bit out of hand. In order for vets and nurses to be paid properly, perhaps there needs to be what you might call a restructuring of veterinary care, with less emphasis on high cost procedures and treatments, and more on fundamental basics, reducing the overall cost to owners and perhaps allowing for vets and nurses to therefore be paid more.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

apache — Thu, 27 Jun 2024 22:00:20 GMT

[quote userid="11854" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178662#178662"]Unfortunately, I don’t think there will be until our title is protected.[/quote]

To all intents and purposes the title registered veterinary nurse is protected and that is the best you will do. They can/will never protect the term nurse as it's a verb/noun in common use in our language. If you know of anyone calling people who aren't RVNs vet nurses then report it to the College, and they should at least contact them. Certainly not allowed under PSS. Move on.

For nurses to diagnose you would need a new vet surgeons act. I'm not sure what this would gain the profession and what things you think nurses could confidently diagnose? I think that would be the wrong direction for profession. I also think it's very unlikely when there remains a diploma/apprentice route into the profession. I also think it's bloody dangerous what the NHS is doing by upskilling some of these nurses and paramedics. People will die because they didn't see a doctor.

They are looking at advanced practitioner status for nurses, and I think that could be very useful. It could even include limited elements as you describe. Remember that many of the restrictions are based on the RCVSs interpretation of the VSA and little of the actual rules are stated in black and white.

What would you like to be able to do as a nurse, and explain why that would be safe, beneficial to the practice and not take you away from your other nursing duties?

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Nessa Harbottle — Thu, 27 Jun 2024 17:47:28 GMT

Arlo Guthrie, I am curious to know if clients would be happy to see a vet nurse and for them to diagnose conditions. A lot of the time, at the moment, they wonder why they aren’t seeing a vet for any type of consult. I still think a lot of clients aren’t aware of who we are and what we can do. But it would be great if we could progress to nurse practioners.

I do agree, it would give us more respect and yes, maybe higher pay but I also see your point with everything that is happening in the vet world at present, this may not be taken positively by some.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 27 Jun 2024 14:30:29 GMT

Nessa Harbottle Out of interest, why couldn't there be a qualification where nurses could diagnose and prescribe certain conditions, regardless of what happens with protecting the title.

[quote userid="47003" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32518/will-there-ever-be-a-advanced-nurse-practitioner-status/178663#178663"]We need to get the title protected. We work hard for our qualifications and we should be recognised for it![/quote]

Dan Lidgbird Just to play devil's advocate ... I sort of wonder if you think that your qualifications are harder to get than a human nurse (which is not a protected title), or in my case, a pilot, which is also not protected? Why do vet nurses deserve to be recognised more than other professions? I am not saying you don't, just asking the question.

More importantly, though, what do you think it will change, by having your title protected in law. What will actually change for you? Do you think you will be paid more? Better respected in society? Is it a stepping stone to greater responsibility as per your original post?

Genuinely interested to know.

Personally, I think it MIGHT lead to increased pay and more respect, up to a point. But then I look at the cost of veterinary care these days, and the kickback from the public, and the CMA investigation, and I wonder who is going to pay for it.

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Dan Lidgbird — Thu, 27 Jun 2024 13:47:12 GMT

We need to get the title protected. We work hard for our qualifications and we should be recognised for it!

RE: Will there ever be a Advanced Nurse Practitioner status?

Nessa Harbottle — Thu, 27 Jun 2024 13:29:37 GMT

Unfortunately, I don’t think there will be until our title is protected.