Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Nessa Harbottle — Sun, 30 Jun 2024 07:52:21 GMT

I think the sad reality is that certain practices allow their nurses to utilise their skills and others don’t.

I have been in practices that are happy to pay for extra qualifications but once finished haven’t allowed me to keep doing the skills I have learnt so I end up feeling like the course was a waste of time. Even some day 1 skills are not utilised which ends up knocking confidence out of me.

A lot of the time, it feels we are there to clean up after the vets, no matter what state they leave their consult rooms etc in.

When I go to interviews, one of my top questions is asking if they utilise their nurses. This also means whether they allow us to develop in our areas of interest. I am a medical nurse through and through. I also have interests in exotics (especially small mammals) and end-of-life/palliative care. Why should I not be allowed to pursue these over anaesthesia (which I am not interested in)?

If they want to stop good, hard working, talented RVNs from leaving the profession, all of these points everyone has made need to be looked into and changes need to be made to reduce the frustration and boredom that we feel and that feeling of once qualified, unless you want to progress to management, this is where RVNs nursing journeys stop.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Kirsty RVN — Sun, 30 Jun 2024 01:26:42 GMT

I am leaving out of bordom and frustrations too! There are nurses that just want to plod along and not push or drive themselves, I get that, so practices don't necessarily want to invest in those nurses but then there are others like myself that are driven and push for opportunities and career progression! I have paid for all my own courses so none of it was at the expense of my own practice! I have worked for practices that don't even utilise nurses to their full potential within their own skills, which is a complete waste and whats the point of even having RVNs! Also whether practices want to see it or not, nurses do help generate revenue for the practice even if its not in plain sight! Who are the ones monitoring the anaesthetic, doing all the hospitalisation etc!!!! I think alot of it from my experience is EGO'S!!! Not wanting to allow nurses to progress keeps us in the assistant role to the vets! Tbh there are many advanced courses for nurses but what's the point because you never get to utilise it in practice once we have paid over a grand to do the thing! What's the point!!!!

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Ben Ogden — Sat, 29 Jun 2024 09:55:39 GMT

To be clear, I am pushing and driving those that want to push for more, but coaching them to drive it rather than just handing it out, which can sometimes be the expectation. Does that make sense?

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

debbie anslow — Sat, 29 Jun 2024 09:46:59 GMT

I have to say @ben this would make me leave your employ! If you have people hungry for more then you should be pushing or driving them, not squashing them! One of the reasons I am.no longer in practice! I would have loved to stay doing behav in practice but i was forced away due to frustration and boredom.

I am now a CCAB running a successful business of my own so their loss?

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Ben Ogden — Sat, 29 Jun 2024 08:21:48 GMT

All interesting points. I think career progression is out there, in the profession, however ultimately it has to be a revenue stream (as I see it anyway).

I have RVNs on my team who are hungry, who want to push themselves and progress, but they know (or I hope they know) I’m not going to hand them progression because they want it.

You want to diversify into this role? Ok, tell me how it expands our services? What will it cost to start up?, how will it pull in clients and revenue?

I see a lot of potential in my RVN team, I have a fledgling Physiotherapy clinic finding its feet, I see a canine behaviour service in the pipeline, there’s an number of untapped RVN clinics sat there waiting for the right person to drive.

progression is out there as I see it, but you have to find the right place.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Rachael Currie — Sun, 05 May 2024 13:11:25 GMT

I agree. Location plays a big part in my opinion, in more rural areas where there is not a much of a small animal caseload leaves us as more of an ACA as the vets are also bored and they want to do the extra roles that we usually would. A huge majority of practices don’t utilise our skills as they should so between case load, poor salary and no career progression in day practice past head nurse it feels pointless to stick at it if you are looking for more at that point.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Kirsty RVN — Sat, 04 May 2024 03:41:02 GMT

I have just come across this post!

I graduated 2015 and left university with all my day one skills! Certain skills was included in NPL at that time not sure if still is such as placement of urinary catheter, FnAs, biopsies, placement of nasogastric feeding tubes and also learnt stitch ups and dental scale and polishes. As well as things like scrubbing in to surgery, gloving and gowning etc, wound management as well as other basic skills such as iv cannula placement and taking bloods! So I was trained, assessed by RCVS and the university to do these skills under S3 and graduated with all my day one skills.

I then moved into practice and was a glorified cleaner! And I've been in different jobs trying to find a role to feel valued and utilised. I have been in jobs where the nurses wasn't allowed to put a bandage on or give a sub cut injection! So we leave university or college with the skills necessary but then massively under utilise and that leads to frustration. We should be building on those day one skills like a preceptorship program and then have opportunities to specialise and develop niche areas!

I have been qualified 9 years and leaving now as had enough and bored with it! I have gone backwards rather then progressing so my heart is no longer in it but as well as the toxic culture in practice or maybe I have just been unlucky!

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 18 Jul 2023 20:01:32 GMT

Hi Charley83 - well, yes and no, I think.

What I mean is that there should surely be a basic set of skills which everyone is trained to be able to do to an acceptable level, which perhaps should include minor acts of surgery, since you are allowed by law to perform them, and the idea is to drive the profession forward.

I would argue that again there's the parallel with being a pilot. I was not terribly good at maths (and therefore navigation), but I could not very well argue that: "I don't really feel confident in navigation, so I'll just leave that bit to the other guy, or a stewardess".

No, what I had to do was overcome my mathematical hurdles and get good at navigation, and that, I think, is what training organisations should be helping nurses to do.

Sure, there may be a case for some areas of specialisation, but not, I would argue, in things that all vet nurses should be capable and confident in.

Otherwise you just make it harder for vets to delegate.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Charley83 — Fri, 14 Jul 2023 21:41:16 GMT

Isn't that why we have veterinary specialists, surely its better working to your strengths than doing a botched job when you know someone could do it better than you but you just do it because you and qualified to do so. I know personally if i did surgery I would not be confident and I do not have a steady hand - I know my vet colleagues would do it better. Why cant nurse have special interests like vets.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

azlana — Fri, 14 Jul 2023 12:14:28 GMT

Nurses can have areas of interest just as well as the vets can

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32435/is-career-progression-a-bigger-problem-than-pay-for-nurses/178231#178231"]Then it would be so much easier for vets to delegate. No subjectivity about it.[/quote]

We are not just there for the vets to delegate tasks off to so they don't have to do it. I have no interest in performing minor surgery and would probably panic if a vet decided to hand that off to me, although I have had the training, its been a small life time since I've used it. I would much rather defer to a nurse that has an interest in that area of clinical practice and be allowed to thrive and concentrate on the area's that interest me.

What I think I mean by this whole reply is that nurses should be encouraged as much as the vets to expand their knowledge in the particular area (if there even is one) within veterinary nursing that keeps them interested. For myself that is ophthalmology and anesthesia and analgesia.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Jul 2023 16:55:22 GMT

[quote userid="22154" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32435/is-career-progression-a-bigger-problem-than-pay-for-nurses/178230#178230"]I hate suturing and surgery.[/quote]

Charley83 Yeah, but ....

I think the thing of being a professional is that you sign up to all the tasks that you are qualified to do, and your profession asks of you.

I mean, I was a pilot once, and what you are saying here would be like me saying "I hate taking off. Really dull. I'd rather not do take offs. A good landing is so much more rewarding. I'll stick to those."

You can't really have one without the other, and I think if vet nurses want to have more responsibility, the profession probably needs to agree the tasks that all vet nurses, like all pilots, or all lawyers, or all of any profession sign up to do."

Then it would be so much easier for vets to delegate. No subjectivity about it.

PS As this community becomes about helping each other, can I ask you (everyone) to display your real names. Really important for transparency, and if you want to post something sensitive, there is always the anon login.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Charley83 — Tue, 04 Jul 2023 16:47:05 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32435/is-career-progression-a-bigger-problem-than-pay-for-nurses/178228#178228"]The slight fly in the ointment with that, is that there is variability on the other side of the equation, too. That is to say there are some nurses who don't want the responsibility of certain tasks the[/quote]

I hate suturing and surgery. I would much rather ultrasound a patient, did an ultrasound course and would love to develop these skills - not suturing - that doesnt interest me at all - boring

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Jul 2023 15:26:29 GMT

[quote userid="30655" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32435/is-career-progression-a-bigger-problem-than-pay-for-nurses/178227#178227"]I'm actually taking a pay cut to feel valued and have a chance to progress. [/quote]

stephsum1 I didn't know that was actually possible (to take a pay cut from veterinary nursing)!

Joking (sort of) aside, that's a sad story. All the best of luck in your new job, and I hope gives you the progression you want.

[quote userid="60985" url="~/f/nonclinical-discussions/32435/is-career-progression-a-bigger-problem-than-pay-for-nurses/178224#178224"]There seems to be so much discrepancy between practices (and even individual vets) as to what nurses are permitted to do[/quote]

Mel Mckernan Yes, I think this is one of the biggest problems.

I think it might be a good idea to set up a 'good employer' accreditation scheme, where the practice commits to allowing its nurses to perform the tasks you are allowed to perform in law.

The slight fly in the ointment with that, is that there is variability on the other side of the equation, too. That is to say there are some nurses who don't want the responsibility of certain tasks they are allowed to do.

So how to bridge that gap? Come up with an agreed set of tasks that all RVNs should be able to do, and all practices should allow them to do.

?????

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

stephsum1 — Tue, 04 Jul 2023 14:04:23 GMT

Having worked in practice since 2004 and being qualified since 2018, I will be leaving practice in two weeks to work in pet insurance. I've had to fight for every opportunity and I've now just had enough after being overlooked for deputy head nurse and my request to do NCert constantly ignored. Prior to that I was knocked back at every course I asked to do to further my knowledge and skills. I've decided that although I'll miss the animals and the skills I get to use, but my self confidence just can't take anymore of a knocking. Where I live moving to another practice isn't much of a option so it's goodbye to nursing for me.

I'm actually taking a pay cut to feel valued and have a chance to progress.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Mel Mckernan — Sun, 25 Jun 2023 21:43:13 GMT

I work in a lovely (very small!!) practice and have a wonderful boss who supported me through gaining my nursing qualification, utilises my skills and has created a valued role for me both within the practice, with clients, and for my own career goals. However, I have nurse friends in other practices whose main job (and peak career progression) is cleaning kennels. They are not even allowed to inject IV. There seems to be so much discrepancy between practices (and even individual vets) as to what nurses are permitted to do, and what they believe nurses should be allowed to do. I have a very fulfilling role currently, but I know that if I moved practice (or it changed ownership into the hands of a vet who wasn't that keen on nurses being utilised) that my whole job could 'go backwards'. That in itself is frustrating and makes me very wary of choosing vet nursing as a long-term, stable, worthwhile career option. We are at the mercy of someone else's opinion/judgment/practice policies, regardless of our level of training. Although I see there is a bit more progression now in terms of advanced certificates etc, social media campaigns educating about the nursing role, the fundamental fact is that we still rely on the vets to define (and support) us and our job description, and this means there is no guaranteed (or even clear!) career progression route. There are higher and lower salaries around, but I want to learn, grow and develop my career too, so for me, sadly the standard clinical vet nursing job role does not seem to offer many appealing growth opportunities for the future. I am very lucky to work for one of the good ones, and count my blessings every day.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Charley83 — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 14:19:16 GMT

Having been a human nurse practitioner, moved to veterinary done a few vet nursing certs - exotics, zoo, ecc, tried referral and doing MSc. I now find it a dead end career for me unless I pay post-grad fees to train as a vet - or open my own practice which is something I would like to do. My practice we are paid well £30000+ but for me career progression is just as important as I get bored.

RE: Is career progression a bigger problem than pay for nurses?

Selena Carnell — Sat, 24 Jun 2023 10:04:11 GMT

Im still nursing, qualified in 1999. I am and RVN i have a certificate in Nursing exotics and a level 3 in leadership and management. I know i am valued in my current employment. But the rate of pay is higher than i have ever been paid but still below 30k per year. I am currently going through a divorce and struggling to find rental house my price range with out having to ask my parents to be a guarantor at the age of 46.

when i have wanted progress with courses or things that might enhance my career ive always been met with finacial blocks from the company, or reasons why they couldn't support it. sadly i feel there are still many vets that do not want nurses to process, seen as an attempt to become 'mini-vets'.

Im lucky i have a great team and still love my job.