Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

Ben Ogden — Fri, 01 Oct 2021 13:31:13 GMT

Veterinary Practice is another world compared to JUST 10 years ago. Theres a lot of things that are influencing our Vets nowadays to diagnose things within an inch of their life and offer EVERY possible treatment option a large piece of that is the misnoma of 'Gold Standard' and the fear of litigation. As said earlier the Vets pressure to diagnoise to as close to 100% as possible and offer every option is likely being mis intepreted by clients and there is a guilt element that they must opt for 'Gold Standard'.

It's a lost skill for a clinician to appropriately steer the client to the direction of what treatement option is most appropriate.

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

jenni99 — Fri, 01 Oct 2021 12:11:38 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32233/vets-helping-pet-owners-prolong-animal-agony/177388#177388"]Not sure if you are saying ethics encompass what you don't do as well as what you do[/quote]

:) In my opinion it absolutely does, if we were witness to an (extreme and ongoing) breach of the Code, or a violation of animal welfare, or you knew the colleague you were working with was unfit to practice then - would the correct and ethical thing be to try to address that ? Or put our heads down and keep walking - in the words of the Manic Street Preachers - if you tolerate this then your children will be next.. but then I'm the woman who is seen marching up the beech asking people at the top of my voice if if they are going to pick up their dogs mess or just leave it there . . .

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

jenni99 — Tue, 28 Sep 2021 10:01:08 GMT

:) re the money then that is so subjective :) To some people my monthly salary is pocket money, to some people my pocket money is their entire monthly income. I think that's a side issue for the owner to be fair ( ? but maybe not for the hospitals and clinicians - who need an income to invest in ever more ground-breaking techniques and procedures ? )

We need to work within the principals of non-maleficence and beneficence for the patient

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

Sal the 1st — Mon, 27 Sep 2021 17:59:33 GMT

I have had quite a few owners ask if they are doing the right thing over the years, or the other question 'if it was your cat/dog/other what would you do?' Next time somebody asks you that type of question try the following - just ask them what their gut feeling is? if the answer comes back 'don't know' ask them what if you did know? or what information they would they need so they did know or just ask them to pretend that they know and 9/10 they will come back with what they are really thinking. In fact give this a go now yourselves with something you aren't quite sure about to which your answer would be I don't know. Think about the issue and then think - what if I did know and see what presents. It isn't finding answers for somebody, I don't believe that is ever a good thing, its helping somebody to acknowledge answers/possibilities that are already there but that for some reason haven't quite made it to the fore.

You get clients who don't necessarily want to take treatment to the nth degree but feel guilty if they haven't tried everything that has been suggested.and I feel there are times when we do let animals and their owners down by being less than honest on what an intervention can achieve.

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:21:25 GMT

[quote userid="30516" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32233/vets-helping-pet-owners-prolong-animal-agony/177387#177387"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
what is, at the end of the day, a dog. Is it ethical to spend all this money rebuilding a dog when there are so many at Battersea that need a new home?

I cant access the article - but I'll put my twopenn'oth in anyhow !!

:) - I (personally) don't think finance is an argument. How much is too much ? If you have that money is it better to spend it on your companion,

or a new handbag, or a car, or a holiday to the Maldives? If you really want to be an ethical being shouldn't you donate your car / holiday / handbag money to a worthwhile charity

[/quote]

jenni99 You are absolutely right of course! Certain things in life are so personal that it's wrong to be judgemental about others who don't share the same viewpoint. How you spend your money is one. Tolerance of risk is another one (which was particularly highlighted by the pandemic). So I shouldn't say or imply it is unethical to spend x on a dog. I should just have said I would not do it myself.

You did get me thinking, philosophically, about when it IS ok to denounce something as unethical. I guess anything which causes another (human or animal) to suffer in some way. Beyond that?

[quote userid="30516" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32233/vets-helping-pet-owners-prolong-animal-agony/177387#177387"]But it encompasses what we don't do, as well as what we do - I for instance walked past two adolescent Dobbies with cropped ears in bandages and held up with tape last week. Did I stop and tell the very smart, suited gentleman that its a mutilation and illegal if done in the UK ? - nope I put my head down and walked past. Do I point out to every Brachy owner the distress their pet is in, and try to persuade them to change breeds for their next pet? [/quote]

Not sure if you are saying ethics encompass what you don't do as well as what you do. If you are saying that, I don't think it unethical to walk past a brachy owner without tearing strips off them, not least because of the risk to your own safety and wellbeing, but also because there are many other ways of tackling issues like that.

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

jenni99 — Mon, 27 Sep 2021 13:59:23 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32233/vets-helping-pet-owners-prolong-animal-agony/177380#177380"] what is, at the end of the day, a dog. Is it ethical to spend all this money rebuilding a dog when there are so many at Battersea that need a new home?[/quote]

I cant access the article - but I'll put my twopenn'oth in anyhow !!

:) - I (personally) don't think finance is an argument. How much is too much ? If you have that money is it better to spend it on your companion,

or a new handbag, or a car, or a holiday to the Maldives? If you really want to be an ethical being shouldn't you donate your car / holiday / handbag money to a worthwhile charity (and too be fair I've heard enough criticism of owners who "won't spend the money" and opt for Euthanasia )

If the treatment is invasive, uncomfortable, to the detriment of the pet that's the important thing, or if it causes suffering to another animal (ie/ eg kidney transplants in cats using live donors )

Personally speaking I too don't believe that just because you can, it doesn't mean you should. and again I believe that there are worse things in life than a peaceful death

But it encompasses what we don't do, as well as what we do - I for instance walked past two adolescent Dobbies with cropped ears in bandages and held up with tape last week. Did I stop and tell the very smart, suited gentleman that its a mutilation and illegal if done in the UK ? - nope I put my head down and walked past. Do I point out to every Brachy owner the distress their pet is in, and try to persuade them to change breeds for their next pet?

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 23 Sep 2021 10:19:16 GMT

[quote userid="4718" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32233/vets-helping-pet-owners-prolong-animal-agony/177379#177379"]I completely agree with them![/quote]

I've been able to speak with the people behind EthicsFirst and hoping to do more to support the group. It's such a huge subject, and not limited to just the question of the ethics of extreme veterinary treatment, but overtreatment and overdiagnosis more generally.

I think it is a riveting subject, because there are often arguments both ways. Extreme treatment, for example, helps advance veterinary science. Pushes the boundaries. But then there is the question of how far it is ethically right to push those boundaries for what is, at the end of the day, a dog. Is it ethical to spend all this money rebuilding a dog when there are so many at Battersea that need a new home?

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:57:27 GMT

I completely agree with them!

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 21 Sep 2021 18:08:58 GMT

[quote userid="4198" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32233/vets-helping-pet-owners-prolong-animal-agony/177375#177375"]we are just doing it for the owners because they can't say goodbye.[/quote]

And they are insured, so they can keep on going ...

[quote userid="4198" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32233/vets-helping-pet-owners-prolong-animal-agony/177375#177375"]But also I worry if we pushed euthanasia too much (even when its the ethical treatment) it will be all over social media about how we don't care and just wanted to kill it! [/quote]

Yeah, that is such a huge problem these days: "Trial by social media". That's why I think this is an area where perhaps the regulator needs to be prepared to back ethical decisions publicly.

RE: Vets 'helping pet owners prolong animal agony'

sarahjune84 — Mon, 20 Sep 2021 09:58:58 GMT

I've said for years just because we can - should we? Is it ethical to put animals through lots of treatment/operations when the outcome is going to be the same and we are just doing it for the owners because they can't say goodbye. Should we be directing them to counselling to deal with the diagnoses before we get them to decided what route of treatment should be taken?

But also I worry if we pushed euthanasia too much (even when its the ethical treatment) it will be all over social media about how we don't care and just wanted to kill it!

It's a fine balance and every client will react differently to the advise we give them.