Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Cyonica — Thu, 18 Feb 2021 19:45:49 GMT

I totally agree about the RCVS council; people have given up. No one wants to sit on the council as a token member and be ignored, it would be soul destroying. As for the last part about expansion of the role, it's written into our code of conduct that we shouldn't perform tasks we aren't competent in, so I don't think it'll change anything in that regard. I totally get what you're saying about the standard of proof and nurses being stuffed by comparison to vets, though. Especially given that nurses are already struck off for far, far less than vets are (lying about an injury being work related is bad enough to have your entire career and life destroyed over? ...Really?)

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 16 Feb 2021 09:08:18 GMT

Ali, (Alison Clare Hickman)

we've gone off on a tangent here (or rather, I've led us off on one!)

Have started a new thread dedicated to fitness to practise legislation changes, where we can pick it up ...

https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32147/vet-legislation-reform-4-fitness-to-practise

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 16 Feb 2021 03:09:37 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32144/who-d-like-to-discuss-the-proposed-changes-to-the-profession/176830#176830"]should be a lower standard of proof in order to[/quote]

The standard of proof in a civil case is lower, yes, with the burden of proof on the claimant. They must claim their case is true and that *on the evidence the occurrence of an event was more likely than not*

There is a very small difference between succeeding and failing on the balance of probabilities for the claimant. If the evidence is such that the claimant can say "we think it more probable than not" the case succeeds but if equal, the case fails. It needs *clear evidence* of 51% or greater to succeed.

This is my understanding of Balance of Probabilities and what I've made my judgement call on. I think it is excellent. I think it is very workable in civil cases and more so than the Beyond Reasonable Doubt, which is an extremely high standard of proof which should, in my opinion at least, be kept aside for criminal cases. Cases which end in a lengthy prison sentence. That is not the intended result in this situation.

Does this help explain my thinking? Have I over simplified it? Happy to discuss it more and be persuaded against it if I am barking like a rabid hound up the wrong tree!!

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:18:09 GMT

[quote userid="6058" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32144/who-d-like-to-discuss-the-proposed-changes-to-the-profession/176828#176828"]Nursing. Hmmm. Good to see protection of the VN title, yay! Read over on VS the disparaging " why does it matter?" comments [/quote]

Important to say that its just one person making those comments, and they're not disparaging, just a different point of view, and concerns about unqualified staff etc.

[quote userid="6058" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32144/who-d-like-to-discuss-the-proposed-changes-to-the-profession/176828#176828"]Also good to change from Criminal Beyond Reasonable Doubt to Civil Likely... (I'm paraphrasing)... ️[/quote]

Why? Genuine question. Why do you think there should be a lower standard of proof in order to be able to 'convict' a vet or nurse?

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 13 Feb 2021 07:05:36 GMT

Okay. Read. Digested. Replied.

(Some of) My thoughts? The inclusion of other paraprofessionals (not nursing)... have they even been consulted yet as to their thoughts on this! Plus, from what I understand from my equine pals the teeth people are a singularly resistant bunch to being told what to do...hey ho good luck RCVS! But on the whole, if (IF) Regulation can bring improved safety and transparency to paraprofessional roles for both animal welfare and to the public then, ok it's a go-er for me.

Nursing. Hmmm. Good to see protection of the VN title, yay! Read over on VS the disparaging " why does it matter?" comments and thank you Arlo Guthrie for sticking up for us! Yes, it does matter!!

Also excellent to see the stretching and better clarification of nursing skills. About time. Agree with Sal the 1st about Day One competences but, Sal, that's always been the case with Newbies with freshly printed qualifications IME, so that's just down to who they will work with and how they are allowed to get loose, surely? A responsible employer will monitor/mentor. Which leads me onto the RCVS having more powers to Enter practice premises etc to check up. GOOD! So long as it means the Corporates don't step back and start placing blame directly with their individual franchises and take responsibility themselves. I work in the financial sector and that's now hugely Regulated and spot checked (albeit a pain in the neck) but it does mean you are kept focussed on what is right to do, even if it's extra work and more cost. Just so.

Also good to change from Criminal Beyond Reasonable Doubt to Civil Likely... (I'm paraphrasing)... ️

I'll not waffle on for the whole of the darned thing as I'm certain sure I've bored you enough already, lol. But safe to say I think that mostly, mooooostly, I'm liking where it's headed personally. But. This is said from the perspective of someone who is at the end (boo hoo nuts and piggy poo) of her practical nursing career sadly... So it won't be affecting me greatly... I've realised in Lockdown that I need to finally wave goodbye to the practical side of nursing but I shall keep my interest going for the next year or so in some desk form or the other. Sigh. Gonna miss it. Maybe I can take up some volunteer work in the future...

I will watch with interest as this develops... But green with envy at the future of nursing as I'd have loved to be a District Nurse if I'm honest!!!!

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 Feb 2021 10:23:51 GMT

[quote userid="2240" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32144/who-d-like-to-discuss-the-proposed-changes-to-the-profession/176825#176825"]Once you have read that then decide if you have the energy and will left to draft a response[/quote]

I'm going to respond to the consultation, once I have gathered thoughts from here and vetsurgeon. The one thing I would say is that I don't think you need to prepare a ten page essay replying to all the issues raised. If there is just one thing in the proposals that you really, really really object to, or which you really, really, really support, then just a sentence to that effect will add your voice.

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 21:33:39 GMT

I would say to anybody that is even vaguely interested that you don't just read the summary - read it all in its entirety, there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. Once you have read that then decide if you have the energy and will left to draft a response. The consultation period for this epic should at least be the same length of time that it took to produce

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 10:20:36 GMT

[quote userid="2240" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32144/who-d-like-to-discuss-the-proposed-changes-to-the-profession/176819#176819"]I know the vets aren't happy either and many of them feel powerless to stop it, so if vets think there are no chances of stopping this what chance do the nurses stand? [/quote]

I don't believe that is a reason for not trying.

I think one of the issues is that you can't change legislation piecemeal, so it has to be considered en bloc.

[quote userid="2240" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32144/who-d-like-to-discuss-the-proposed-changes-to-the-profession/176819#176819"]I acknowledge the consultation time has been increased but it isn't sufficient for those of us that are working our backsides off.[/quote]

It was launched on November 5th, and has been extended to April 23rd. More or less six months. Now I am not an apologist for the RCVS, but I'd say that was enough time to consider the proposals!!!

[quote userid="2240" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32144/who-d-like-to-discuss-the-proposed-changes-to-the-profession/176819#176819"]The fact that there is only one nurse standing should be giving a clear message that either everybody else has given up too or that they just can't be bothered.[/quote]

Maybe exactly that. It would be interesting to know.

[quote userid="2240" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-veterinary-practice/32144/who-d-like-to-discuss-the-proposed-changes-to-the-profession/176819#176819"]Expansion of the role of vn's - have to admit some of this is worrying. [/quote]

OK - I'm going to start discussion threads for each section of the proposals, as I'm doing on VetSurgeon, and let's discuss each in more detail.

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

molladog — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:20:06 GMT

Totally agree with you Sal with all of this.

RE: Who'd like to discuss the proposed changes to the profession?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 11 Feb 2021 02:08:35 GMT

In my case it isn't that I don't care - its that I have given up on the RCVS. They take my money every year , they spend it on something that I will see no benefit of, they throw threats of what will happen if you don't do x y or z, most of the time they are so far divorced or distant that its untrue. Benevolent it is not. The standard of proof for disciplinaries I have been following closely in various places. I know the vets aren't happy either and many of them feel powerless to stop it, so if vets think there are no chances of stopping this what chance do the nurses stand?

My personal view is that these proposals should be put on hold whilst everybody is run ragged dealing with covid and not snook in under the radar. There is an awful lot to read and digest, and it doesn't make easy reading (typically). The RCVS is never going to win any prizes for plain English. These proposed changes shouldn't have come out en bloc rather they should have come out gradually and each aspect people should have been given the time to digest fully and comment carefully. I acknowledge the consultation time has been increased but it isn't sufficient for those of us that are working our backsides off. That these proposals are so important and yet are being rushed through - what kind of message is that giving?

The fact that there is only one nurse standing should be giving a clear message that either everybody else has given up too or that they just can't be bothered.

Expansion of the role of vn's - have to admit some of this is worrying. My main concern is that some of the newly qualified (and not so newly qualified) who struggle with day one competencies - there are a couple of things that could happen - either they are too cock sure and intoxicated with their new qualification, or they aren't and have tasks delegated to them which they don't feel comfortable performing, and make a mistake. If the standard of proof has moved from certain to probable there will be a lot more of us 'before the beak' and whereas a veterinary surgeon has a better chance of disputing or fighting a decision legally (because they have a better chance of having the funds or contacts to do so) most nurses are going to be stuffed.

Honestly, I am relieved I am coming to the end of my working life rather than just starting out