Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 19:51:05 GMT

this is what we have been advised CAW. one of our potential students also needs to re do maths and English and luckily we have managed to find that locally for free otherwise that would have been another 700+ on top

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

apache — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 13:14:26 GMT

Sorry - where is the £12K coming from? That's insane.

We have had 2 diploma students as apprentices and the 2nd cost a bit more as 19 years old.

The biggest cost to us has been the time for training.

Our current apprentice fell between two grants, so we got a payment of £1000 for the first one (that covered the fee element) and there is now a £2000 grant available.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 11:47:09 GMT

another 3 years and I will have clocked up my 40yrs if I can make it - even getting onto the floor these days is dicey, need a new hip. still managing at the minute tho. So many changes over the years and sadly not all for the better. In a lot of respects I feel quite sad about what the job has changed into but there are still enough good bits to make it feel worthwhile

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Selena Carnell — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 09:39:43 GMT

Yep i still enjoy it 20+ years in, can't kneel on the floor as long as I used to and have to watch my back after slipping a disc 2 yrs ago!

Can't say i like the changes corporate has brought with it though.

Training fees now, i think last time I looked would cost nearly £12k practices don't want to fork out that much money for someone who will probably move on a couple of years post training. all the faff and paper work to go with it.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:07:26 GMT

was the same for me - and I don't reckon we turned out that bad, still nursing and most of the time still happy to be nursing

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Selena Carnell — Sat, 17 Oct 2020 18:47:24 GMT

[quote userid="2240" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176554#176554"]- I can't recall my training costing a 10th of that (I self funded). There is an obscene amount of money being made out of training these days[/quote]

i think my first year block release cost £250, and the second year block release £500 on the old green book system.

And could not get any funding as it wasn't classed as higher education.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 00:15:49 GMT

we are looking to become a tp - but then when you consider the costs involved I can see why there are so few practices training - an eye watering 12k per trainee in fees + the annual RCVS fees to be a tp not counting the time trainees are at college - I can't recall my training costing a 10th of that (I self funded). There is an obscene amount of money being made out of training these days

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

starla — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 00:05:01 GMT

I cannot find a VN training position for the life of me. I'm sorry to hear there is a shortage of RVN out there, but there are still plenty wanting to be trained.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 Sep 2020 22:14:47 GMT

well its not the first time I have been through this - this is number 7 if you count one practice that changed hands 3 times during my time there. Just wondering if I have the stomach to go through this yet again I have put so much into this place and feel like I have been sold as part of the fixtures and fittings. I suppose he did inform us - 1/2 before the new boss arrived. I cannot help feeling angry. I understand his reasons for selling but right now I am fresh out of sympathy.

Last year I handed in my notice because I was sick to death of the sniping, back biting, tantrums and bitchiness. I stayed in the finish as I ended up feeling guilty for leaving them without a qualified nurse - we had been trying to get another nurse for years but nobody would stay. Had I left then I had another job I could have walked straight into (not vet nursing but something I am equally passionate about) - like a fool I stayed, but hey ho its my own fault for being too trusting and moving on will give the new boss a chance.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

r-more — Sun, 06 Sep 2020 18:39:43 GMT

sh1tty? It’s actually against the law! Employers have a legal requirement to consult and inform on such matters.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 Sep 2020 10:21:01 GMT

but we are important - important in that our input can make or break keeping a practice running. If that isn't important enough then I'm sorry but for me that is enough to more than fill my working hours and then some.Perhaps you don't recognise the importance of a clean, hygenic, well stocked, smooth running, veterinary practice in the same way that I do? but we are each of us different, working in different environments. My concern is if our role becomes too prescriptive over what we can and cannot do we are simply going to run out of people who can fulfill the role - well, I mean more so than is already happening. What you would like and many others would like isn't necessarily what everybody would like, there is no one size fits all solution but I fear that is what is being aimed at. Most of the changes I have seen in the last decade have been like this mornings Asda order - very late, missing half of what I needed and many unsuitable substitutions.

Although some see me as being on the side of the employer and holding nursing back (has been said more than once) believe me it could not be further from the truth, especially with my latest ex employer who thought after 10+ yrs service it was ok to let me know by text 1/2 hr before the new owner shows up that he has sold the practice - that was pretty sh1tty in my book

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Cyonica — Sat, 05 Sep 2020 18:56:29 GMT

I'm not talking about further defining Schedule 3 or creating more management positions, I'm talking about changing the limit on what we can train to do. They're already in discussions about it and what they're talking about seems sensible. I didn't mention cleaning and helping reception etc., but if it became an issue then my question would be why waste money paying qualified people to do tasks that can be done by anyone?

I think plenty of people have said throughout this thread why retention is a problem. Lack of appreciation, recognition, pay and progression seem to be common themes. I obviously don't have the answers, but I can tell you that saying we're not important and that clients, practice owners and vets are perfectly happy the way things are isn't going to convince anyone not to change careers.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 05 Sep 2020 14:36:04 GMT

[quote userid="10972" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176409#176409"]I hear this quite a lot, but what do you mean? I need nurses, I don't need a team of head nurses. I need people to look after patients, monitor anaesthetics, give meds, do schedule 3 stuff, help with reception, sterilise kit, reordering, cleaning. I've been vetting a long time but I suspect I'll still be giving vaccinations and squeezing anal glands when I retire, where is my progression? Much of the industry requires suitably qualified staff to do their jobs, in relatively small businesses. No great ladder to climb[/quote]

I agree with this. From what I have witnessed over the years there is more importance being vested in being in charge of other people than there is in being responsible for the more mundane jobs - even VCA's like to lord it over somebody but unfortunately we don't work in the NHS with its level upon level of hierarchy the buck has to stop somewhere and somebody has to do the stuff that keeps the practice running. I qualified in 96 and had already been in practice 12 yrs when I qualified. I am still doing reception, still cleaning floors and kennels and still nursing.Still enjoying the job mostly. It doesn't mean I am without ambition - I just prefer to do the things that I can do the best I can.

Defining Schedule 3 more closely isn't going to change anything except maybe make our jobs more difficult because in a short time there will need to be revisions and then a repeated decades long fight and discussion as to what nurses could or should be able to do. We can actually do less now as qualified nurses than was once possible.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Cyonica — Sat, 05 Sep 2020 02:19:16 GMT

As you can probably tell I'm very passionate about this but not very articulate. I wasn't using the term "highly skilled" in anywhere near the way it came across to you; I should have phrased it very differently, but I was trying to say that we're treated as just assistants to do only what we're told, but also trained to know far more than we have any say over, told we're professionals and that we're responsible and accountable for our actions, and to keep developing our skills and knowledge. It's incredibly frustrating, as the more I learn the more redundant I end up feeling. Human anaesthetists are an absurd comparison to draw, and nowhere near what I meant.

Schedule 3 isn't vague in a good way I don't think. I wonder if it was originally intended to be, but the RCVS seem to take pretty strong views on it these days. And since we and the vets are both regulated, we have to be careful where we tread and the vets have to be careful how they delegate. I don't see how the vagueness could protect the patients, either.

I think we need to be able to be independent professionals, able to have work delegated to us by veterinary surgeons that we can then take responsibility for completing, with appropriate training and standardised qualifications where needed (not just unregulated CPD). I believe that could improve patient welfare, ease the pressure on vets, and provide career progression for nurses. To be clear I'm still mostly talking about things nurses can already do, although I think a bigger role in anaesthesia (again, with proper training) and a nurse practitioner role are good ideas.

3 years (and a lot of debt if you go the degree route) is a big investment for a job that you're saying isn't necessary and can be filled by unqualified lay staff. You can live very comfortably on a vet wage, and there is all manner of scope for progression. As a nurse I can get a little over minimum wage, and maybe aspire to be a head nurse or even a practice manager one day, but probably not. That means it makes little sense to stay a nurse, hence the retention problem.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

apache — Fri, 04 Sep 2020 23:02:38 GMT

[quote userid="60272" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176401#176401"]I also think that Schedule 3 and the RCVS have a lot to answer for. I don't think anything can or will change until they do. Schedule 3 should have already been updated a long time ago[/quote]

How so? What would you like it to say/do?

I personally like it as it is. Vague enough that I can delegate a lot of responsibility to a trusted nurse, but things can only be done with vet involvement and supervision. That vagueness is great and protects the patients.

[quote userid="60272" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176401#176401"]They've trained us to be highly skilled professionals, and shackled us to the role of assistant.[/quote]

I have a lot of faith in our nurses, but can we keep this in context, please? You could be a fully qualified RVN at 18 years old have done a 2-year apprenticeship and spent 1 day a week at college. That's less college/uni education than a vet in their first term full time.

To become a human anaesthetist you do a 5 year medical degree and a MINIMUM of 7 years further training before you can practice completely unsupervised. https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/explore-roles/doctors/roles-doctors/anaesthesia/training-and-development

Please don't insult anyone by suggesting your diploma or degree is equivalent. I think there may be rather differing views over what a 'highly skilled professional' is when you look into it. On the one hand it's amazing we have the successes we do in the profession with something like anaesthesia as we do (I realise as a vet I have nothing approaching the human anaesthetists training).

[quote userid="60272" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176401#176401"]We also need real career progression, which means they have to open up avenues for us to do so.[/quote]

I hear this quite a lot, but what do you mean? I need nurses, I don't need a team of head nurses. I need people to look after patients, monitor anaesthetics, give meds, do schedule 3 stuff, help with reception, sterilise kit, reordering, cleaning. I've been vetting a long time but I suspect I'll still be giving vaccinations and squeezing anal glands when I retire, where is my progression? Much of the industry requires suitably qualified staff to do their jobs, in relatively small businesses. No great ladder to climb.

[quote userid="60272" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176401#176401"]This is what unions are for.[/quote]

If less than 21 staff no need to recognise a union, I bet that covers 90% of independent practices. There is not the money to pay lots more, I've explained this before. We've already increased prices vastly faster than inflation due to pet insurance and the rush for gold plating. Ironically on our journey we've trained VNs for the first time.......

If it makes you feel any better my turnover has more than doubled, my staff numbers have doubled but my profit is very similar. A dedicated sterile operating theatre, changing into scrubs etc has not reduced our post op infection rates (they remain very rare). I've lost 2 dogs under anaesthesia in my career - one with a nurse and one without.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

apache — Fri, 04 Sep 2020 22:33:08 GMT

[quote userid="2637" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176398#176398"]It's not acceptable to say there are no funds to pay RVNs a fair livable wage and then give all the services RVN's can provide away for free![/quote]

Agree. I have a nurse consult fee that is lower than a vet consult fee, but there is a limit to what nurses can do. Things like nail clip/EAG we charge the same whichever professional does the task. I disagree with the practices that charge a nurse out at a lower rate for the same task.

[quote userid="2637" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176398#176398"]

Unfortunately for the 18yr old school leaver, that info isn't so easy to obtain and they'll largely be led by the course provider and then further down the trainer the Locum agencies.

[/quote]

I think it's pretty easy to find the info: https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/job-profiles/veterinary-nurse

I really hope people do some basic research before starting their training.

[quote userid="2637" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176398#176398"]THAT comment should be lighting a fire in your belly to go forward and SHOW apache and others that hold that view where the role can go and down the road make that comment redundant. I've read apache's comments on topics enough over the years to guess that if positive change was to occur they'd change their point of view. [/quote]

I said it to stimulate debate, but it is true to an extent. I think it's one HUGE limitation of nursing and an absolute cap on pay. I can't see there is much getting away from that.

[quote userid="2637" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176398#176398"]look to GROW the RVN role and thus the business. [/quote]

(sorry for quoting out of order) - this is a very interesting point. A general view is a vet needs to turnover 4-5X their salary. If a nurse working for me could generate £25,000 of extra turnover (and still do the job that I am already paying them salary to do) then I will happily top up their salary to £27,000 (£21,000 + £6000 for the extra work). I just don't see where that extra chargeable work will come from or where they will always find the time to do it.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Cyonica — Thu, 03 Sep 2020 21:15:41 GMT

Yep!!

I also think that Schedule 3 and the RCVS have a lot to answer for. I don't think anything can or will change until they do. Schedule 3 should have already been updated a long time ago, and I think we still need to keep making noise on that front, or risk them thinking they've placated us. It's too at odds with the reality of working in practice and the level that we're trained to, and I would even argue it's dangerous particularly with regards to lay people monitoring anaesthesia. They've trained us to be skilled professionals, and shackled us to the role of assistant.

The veterinary industry seems to be trying to balance at the moment between gold standard and low budget, and I'm not sure which way it's going to tip. One means highly trained professionals offering gold standard modern medicine, and the other means maximising use of lay staff and minimising costs and equipment. If we're going the latter, then there's no point training us to such a high standard or expecting us to do CPD. If we're going the former, then we need to be paid for it which means the work needs to be charged for. We also need real career progression, which means they have to open up avenues for us to do so. Staying in a dead end minimum wage profession is madness, so the answer to retention is fixing that.

This is what unions are for. The BVNA are wonderful when it comes to legal advice, but I don't know how much power they really have, and I don't think they're a proper union as such. There's also the British Veterinary Union, who are getting more and more vocal and seem to care about both vets and nurses. We do need someone to represent us, so I'm hopeful that one of them will step their game up.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Celia Carr — Thu, 03 Sep 2020 12:39:52 GMT

I love this comment it almost almost gives me fire in my belly to rise up lol but when you've been paid like your rubbish told (not directly but by the attitudes that exist and the money available) that your indispensable as there are always vets who can do your job as well or new student nurses willing to take your place for free or apprentice rates it's hard to get to enthused. The whole industry needs regulating with an expected pay structure rather than corporations generally paying higher but you sell your soul and just about everything else to get the commission and get stuck doing whole days of nurse clinics. It's an amazing industry with so much opportunity in terms of being able to learn and partake in skilled areas such as surgery but it just needs supportive employers a real structure of not only what nurses can do (schedule 3) but what they WILL do and all employers supporting this rather than giving them scraps. I personally HATE nurse clinics with a passion they bore me to death so being told by potential employers that they VALUE nurses and let them do nurse clinics and do lab work is like telling me I can clean 20 filthy kennels in a row before mucking out the stables. We all do what we have to but we all have interests and skills that could seriously free up the vets time and earn money for the practice. It's about time that money was structured and nurses are expected to do schedule 3 and can move into areas of expertise and interest. I remain in this career because I still see where it can go, and probably will go (and I am lucky to work for a small independent practice that let's me try new things like surgery) but it will take us all standing up and fighting for the pay structures and responsibilities so we dont die of boredom and Bills and probably also some sort of TV advertising to show the public what Vet Nursing is about like they do for the NHS. Until awareness exists we will always be as we are sadly.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Ben Ogden — Thu, 03 Sep 2020 11:17:13 GMT

I've said it a thousand times, "monetise RVN's"

It's not acceptable to say there are no funds to pay RVNs a fair livable wage and then give all the services RVN's can provide away for free!

I do NOT accept ANY excuse about market forces, people won't pay etc; **put the effort in!** single out the services that are a no brainer, create value and cultivate growth. This Profession suffers from too much "but it won't work because of XY & Z" and not enough "we can make it work if we AB & C".

We NEED practices that will set the trend, it happened with plenty of other changes in the Veterinary world, it can happen with this.

Locum agencies and Vet Nursing course providers keep pulling the wool over the eyes of people entering the profession, filling them with unrealisitic notions, I'm not suprised RVN's leave in droves, they enter practice life, full of degree debt and fast learn the realities of the Profession.

[quote userid="10972" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176301#176301"]My advice, if considering this as a career, is to look at the salary and the job. [/quote]

Unfortunately for the 18yr old school leaver, that info isn't so easy to obtain and they'll largely be led by the course provider and then further down the trainer the Locum agencies.

It should be US, the ones left behind, making a point to push up the value of RVN's, increase pressure on the BVNA to be our voice, set a business plan on what services should be monetised and given true value.

I'm excited to see things are trying to change - LINK and can only hope practices STOP leaving money sat on the table and look to GROW the RVN role and thus the business.

[quote userid="10972" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176307#176307"]I much prefer having nurses, but they are not vital to the running of the practice.[/quote]

THAT comment should be lighting a fire in your belly to go forward and SHOW apache and others that hold that view where the role can go and down the road make that comment redundant. I've read apache's comments on topics enough over the years to guess that if positive change was to occur they'd change their point of view.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Celia Carr — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 10:16:36 GMT

I can also agree with that, it's why I'm still nursing lol as although i dont earn what I'm worth I enjoy my job, its local, my bosses are supportive and when I announced I was bored of general practice and I wanted to do surgery they said yes and I now do several ops. I'm also lucky that we get a really good retention fee for doing a weekend on call so it balances out the lower hourly rate. I know lots of rvns that retrained and joined NHS to do what they lalready do for more money and as they feel more respected as human nurses. I personally retrained as a massage therapist which I do as a side line from home around my work hours at the vets. I think once you hit your 30s and have kids you definitely need something to supplement your income if you choose not to retrain for higher wages. It's just sad that this is common place in our industry where highly skilled people cant afford to live.

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Zoe Davies — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 08:12:26 GMT

these are the jobs I am now looking at and possibly re training on a lower wage for 2-3years as I have no further qualifications :-(

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 07:58:51 GMT

I agree wage is part of it but not the whole. Perhaps I see things a bit differently but for quite a few of us if we were to turn our backs on nursing and assuming we had no other qualifications we would struggle to find work with a comparable wage. - just thinking of work local to me, the options would be very very limited if I had no other skills or qualifications. True Aldi are recruiting nationwide at the moment and their hourly rate is pretty good but most of the other vacancies at the minute are call centres ,nursing homes, factory work (through an agency so basically minimum wage with no guaranteed hours) and customer service - which are all minimum or just above minimum wage. So although the vet nursing wage might not be ideal it can be quite a bit higher than anything else on offer locally

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Zoe Davies RVN — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 21:32:24 GMT

We are leaving due to wages. I have over 20yrs experience and qualified 15.5yrs ago and being offered crazy wages like 18-20k :-(

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Tue, 11 Aug 2020 07:07:54 GMT

[quote userid="60272" url="~/001/nonclinical/occupational/f/employment/32021/where-are-all-the-rvns-vcas-and-svns/176309#176309"]We're given the expectation that we're important [/quote]

and that has hit the nail on the head - the expectation is quite a bit different to the reality and we need to be looking at where that expectation is built up into something that is rarely realised

RE: Where are all the RVNs VCAs and SVNs?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 23:03:20 GMT

'we have been looking for a qualified nurse that would stay for longer than a couple of months, that would do their share of on call for about 8yrs now'

I thought I had better expand on this reply. Nurse number one didn't stay the week but used her time with us to re negotiate a better deal with her previous practice after spending lots of money on things we would never use - but luckily having been there for such a short time some of it could be returned. Second nurse, cost an arm and a leg through an agency, promised the moon on a stick and returned nothing. After the first couple of weeks decided she needed to cut hours and couldn't work earlies because of children and couldn't work lates because of children - both had been discussed and apparently were ok at interview. Another few weeks down the line and wasn't able to do any on call - and up until then hadn't as we had wanted to let her settle in first and also not willing to work a Saturday am , again both discussed at interview. The crunch came when asked to take a share of the Christmas on call and didn't want to do any of that either and handed in her notice.

I don't think there is so much a shortage of nurses so much as a shortage of adaptable nurses who can or will fit in with what a practice needs.I also think there is a mismatch in many cases in the level the nurses are being trained to and what is actually needed by some of the practices and somewhere along the line, like it or not, this must be addressed - until it is we are always going to have this problem.

Re wages I don't think a lot of people understand that their income is dependent on the practice income and that isn't the daily takings you see coming into the till it is what is left when all the bills have been paid . What could be seen as an inadequate wage may be all the practice can afford. If you have a job you like and can afford to live on the wage that is offered do not let it go as the chances of both factors happening are rare.

I know it might appear to some that I tend to side with the employer but I don't really take sides. The survival of your job is dependent on the survival of the practice I understand that and sometimes you have to put a bit more in to get a bit more out. It isn't always the case that your position is undervalued , it could well be that the employer is under funded. For example outside of nursing I have a voluntary role within a trust. Part of my remit is to raise money through various activities to help keep the trust afloat - this year covid knocked 260k off just my part of the trust income overnight. We are a charity and qualify for bugger all help so yes I understand that times are tough we have had to discuss options with 2 of our employees. We cannot afford to pay them what they are worth but we have been honest with them from day one and bless them they have both decided they will stay for as long as they can on a reduced rate. It isn't what either side wanted to happen but it is what had to happen to keep us alive