The new SUPERB poster

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 10:31:54 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]But back to that fantastic poster (not forgetting the colouring book) - FGS when will they stop treating professional, qualified nurses like a bunch of Girl Guides off on their first camp. [/quote]

Spot on Sal the 1st - I've thought similarly many times but didn't manage to put a descriptive enough hat on it! Just the RCVS act in this way though as 99.9% of the vets I've worked with have been super supportive.

RE: The new SUPERB poster

molladog — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 08:41:42 GMT

Love this bit Sal....so true

But back to that fantastic poster (not forgetting the colouring book) - FGS when will they stop treating professional, qualified nurses like a bunch of Girl Guides off on their first camp.

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Jess Barrett — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 20:00:25 GMT

I would love to hear general views about schedule three as well to understand the general opinion of vet nurses and surgeons

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Sal the 1st — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 19:49:34 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

It would absolutely have to be pitched right, so that it isn't seen as prescriptive, or restrictive.

[/quote]

I agree with this

but can also see Apache's point that creating a list could create a feeling of 'entitlement' in nurses that lack skill, experience and competency.

it is great when you have a supportive boss but not so much when you don't

I don't know about anybody else of my vintage but I just do not trust the RCVS not to chuck me under the bus. I do a lot less now than I ever did, and yes some of that is down to working in a different practice, some of it is because we are no longer allowed to do certain things, but a lot of it is that I am always watching my back. I HATE defensive nursing but that is what I feel I have been forced into - or rather I still love nursing but all the crap that comes with it really gets you down.

But back to that fantastic poster (not forgetting the colouring book) - FGS when will they stop treating professional, qualified nurses like a bunch of Girl Guides off on their first camp.

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 18:38:21 GMT

[quote user="apache"]I like the current system and think it's very safe. I can delegate anything that doesn't require entry into a body cavity if I believe the nurse is competent and offer the necessary supervision. [/quote]

Yes, but ...

Would you describe yourself as a reasonably self-assured practitioner? And would you agree that there are many who are not as confident as you about delegating? If you agree, then wouldn't you also agree that a list of some sort would be useful to help those who are not as confident about delegating as you are?

[quote user="apache"]If you create a system where there is a list then RCVS is saying that all nurses are all competent to remove a mass <10cm and suture a bite wound. [/quote]

NO ... absolutely disagree with you about that! It is a question of how it is framed. In all cases, the delegating surgeon needs to be happy that the nurse has the required skill/experience/training to do the job and is competent to do so. That overrides any list and would have to be made very clear.

[quote user="apache"]there will NEVER be an all encompassing list and nor should there be[/quote]

I was not suggesting there should be, and I agree with you that there should not. But I do think there should be a list of some sort. It is a question of how a list is framed at the outset. I think it would be perfectly fair and reasonable to have a list which is described as 'examples of what nurses can do' without being exhaustive.

It would absolutely have to be pitched right, so that it isn't seen as prescriptive, or restrictive.

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Jess Barrett — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 16:02:18 GMT

Thank you so much to everyone who has commented so far it is really helpful!

RE: The new SUPERB poster

apache — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 14:30:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]What really needs to happen is for Schedule 3 tasks to be defined. [/quote]

I disagree. I like the current system and think it's very safe. I can delegate anything that doesn't require entry into a body cavity if I believe the nurse is competent and offer the necessary supervision. The only time that a nurse has any risk is where (s)he undertakes something they don't believe they are competent to do, or involves entering a body cavity. The risk profile sits on the vets shoulders for delegating.

If you create a system where there is a list then RCVS is saying that all nurses are all competent to remove a mass <10cm and suture a bite wound. That is not the case. The capability within a different practice will vary - there will NEVER be an all encompassing list and nor should there be. I know nurses get upset about the schedule 3 and delegation, but I believe it is vital that this only happens in conjunction with a veterinary surgeon - a list makes it easier for a nurse to go and do some things without that backup and supervision.

RCVS is never going to go after a vet or nurse where that delegation was reasonable and not entering a bodily cavity. I'm very comfortable with that.

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Sal the 1st — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 08:40:34 GMT

[quote user="r-more"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]What really needs to happen is for Schedule 3 tasks to be defined.

[/quote]

The problem here is that although the RCVS is a regulatory body and can lobby parliament to make and/or amend laws, they aren’t in a position to interpret laws, only the courts can do that. So as long as schedule 3 states “minor medical/surgical, not involving entry into a body cavity” the RCVS can only offer guidance on what the means, not formal/statutory interpretation. The only way that can happen is if a case goes to court, the court makes a ruling, that ruling would than become case law and provide and formal interpretation.

[/quote]

but if the RCVS cannot interpret laws and give us good solid guidance what hope have we got? it leaves us in no mans land where somebody may quite unintentionally commit an offence. Which will end up with them being struck off as they then have a criminal offence against their name which will then end their career.

The chances of a nurse bringing any legal action against the RCVS for failing to give adequate guidance in this case would be so remote as to be non existent, there is no way a nurse could afford to challenge them.

This is one of the very big reasons I decided to stay as a vn instead of an rvn until I was forced into it. Making us responsible when nobody really knew what we were responsible for.

I am and have been for a long time very worried about the future - not just for me but the nurses that come after (if we have any left). There certainly isn't much joy in this job anymore

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Sal the 1st — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 08:17:42 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

if we all knew exactly what the road map was...

[/quote]

I suggest this if things carry like they are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQiOA7euaYA - and its our money they are spending to take us there. We need some bus stops and a new driver

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 03:27:25 GMT

The original intention may have been worthy but the end result is banality. Doesn't do much for me I am afraid...

Then again, how do you make practical professional sense of a vague set of 'rules'?! No need for such a 'guide' if we all knew exactly what the road map was...

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Sal the 1st — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 00:19:54 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

‘look, this is not infallible,

[/quote]

hell's bells what a suggestion you are sure to burn for that one!

best use for the poster - covering the mark on the wall where I bang my head every time one of these initiatives comes out

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 19:41:56 GMT

Hi r-more, yes I knew that, but the College could, for example, take legal advice and offer advice on that basis. ie produce a list and say: ‘look, this is not infallible, but we’ve taken legal advice and the advice is that this, this and this are likely to be OK’.

RE: The new SUPERB poster

r-more — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 19:36:21 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]What really needs to happen is for Schedule 3 tasks to be defined.

[/quote]

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 13:13:21 GMT

[quote user="Robyn "]in the politest sense[/quote]

chuckling away at my desk here!

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Robyn — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 12:57:46 GMT

I feel like all that's ever been asked for has been a clear example list of tasks which can and cannot be delegated, and clarification on those weird edge cases which no-one seems quite sure about. This...in the politest sense, doesn't provide any extra guidance!

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 12:18:22 GMT

[quote user="apache"]I think it's insulting. I fail to see how it clarifies anything.[/quote]

To be fair, I think anything which gets people thinking more about delegating and getting the most from their vns is a good thing at some level.

But as many have already said, this poster states the obvious, which makes it sound patronising. Which is a shame.

What really needs to happen is for Schedule 3 tasks to be defined.

RE: The new SUPERB poster

Sal the 1st — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 08:49:31 GMT

I'm in the wrong job obviously

RE: The new SUPERB poster

molladog — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 08:23:38 GMT

Totally agree with all you say Apache !

RE: The new SUPERB poster

apache — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 23:40:37 GMT

I think it's insulting. I fail to see how it clarifies anything. Then I start thinking about it and I get increasingly annoyed that you cannot pull a loose tooth with forceps, or castrate a cat, but you can remove mast cell tumour or suture some nasty wounds that require much more planning and skill.

If anything it feels like they came up with the acronym and tried to shoehorn some content into it...............