Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Ben Ogden — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:00:12 GMT

The sad truth is Veterinary Practice is run by market forces. It was run by market forces 15 years ago when corporates were in their infancy and it's still run by market forces now in a world where you can't pick your nose without hitting a corporate practice.

@apache is right about simple economics, nurses do not have an obvious financial benefit on paper. Nurses want to be better paid, but that money has got to come from somewhere, put your prices up and your market floats away, so you have to get clever! AND proactive. Saying you have value isn't enough, it needs to be evident and it needs to be PUBLIC. The average client has NO IDEA what happens behind those doors and the work that goes on, so how can it have value?

Push the profession, publicise the hard work you do, think outside the box on generating income and raise the bar for you and those around you.

Kudos to Apaches practice being able to get on fine if Nurses disappeared one day, I KNOW though that in my practice (and previous practices) if the Nurses disappeared the practice would not run effectively and Vets would be off with stress very rapidly. Our Vets know our value, we're not a luxury, we're an integral part of practice life and if every RVN got pro active we could be a profitable part of practice life.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 24 Oct 2019 12:03:20 GMT

[quote user="molladog"]We used to run a cattery and kennels at my first practice but then the neighbours in all the new houses being built nearby kicked up so much fuss about the barking that we closed them. Probably that would be the reason that no vets run a kennels unless they are very rural ?[/quote]

Doh - silly me - hadn't thought of that. Perhaps a cattery, then?! Or a boarding aviary, so long as it doesn't take peacocks!

[quote user="duncat"]Personally I don't think it's to strong as a Qualified veterinary Nurse who has been for many interviews recently and has been offered such ridiculous low ball offers from such Veterinary Surgeons I'm a little fed up with the whole situation.[/quote]

Tanya Traill I'm not surprised, on either count. And believe me, I absolutely agree with you that veterinary nurses need to be paid properly. You're not charity workers.

[quote user="duncat"]Again in the past I've worked for some incredible employers who offer Nurses what they are worth[/quote]

Coming back to my earlier point, was there something about these practices that allowed them to pay well, for example serving an affluent area with relatively little competition? And when you say they offered nurses what they are worth, how much was that? Genuinely interested to know (also important to the discussion, because otherwise 'offering vet nurses what they are worth' is too subjective. It may mean different amounts to different people!).

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Tanya Traill — Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:40:40 GMT

Personally I don't think it's to strong as a Qualified veterinary Nurse who has been for many interviews recently and has been offered such ridiculous low ball offers from such Veterinary Surgeons I'm a little fed up with the whole situation.

I am now locuming in my area as It's not worth getting a full time job as it just doesn't pay the bills.

I'm a mum which was my own choice I went into having a child with my eyes wide open knowing it would be difficult to balance work and childcare around having a job.

This profession as a whole we are not in it for the money Vets or Nurses but I think Vets are quick to use the card Nurses don't earn enough to be paid what they want to be paid.

It's not about being greedy it's about being able to afford to live and I'm lucky enough that I have a partner and a family behind me that could help me but not every nurse is as lucky as me in having back up.

If your a single nurse earning some of the wages I've been on and been offered you can not afford to able to live.

Again in the past I've worked for some incredible employers who offer Nurses what they are worth and value what they bring to business again I understand it's a business and needs to be profitable.

There are many ways to help the business grow and I think a lot of Veterinary practices do not utilise Nurses enough but I have worked in one that utilised them to the full potential that they could.

I have strong opinions and came off the back off some very long night shifts recently and looking after my young child so being tired may of contributed to a very strong post.

But I believe in good Veterinary Nurses being supported by good bosses :).

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

molladog — Tue, 22 Oct 2019 12:20:53 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]As to additional revenue streams, one thing I've always thought is a missed opportunity ... which is that more practices don't offer kennel facilities. I know if I was going on holiday and there was a choice of leaving the dog at some of the dodgy places round here, or my vet, I know which I would choose, and I would probably pay a small premium. I would imagine the economies of scale would also mean a kennel run by a vet would be more profitable than one run by anyone else.[/quote]

We used to run a cattery and kennels at my first practice but then the neighbours in all the new houses being built nearby kicked up so much fuss about the barking that we closed them. Probably that would be the reason that no vets run a kennels unless they are very rural ?

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:59:59 GMT

[quote user="duncat"]I personally think you have no place on the vet nurse forum and I would never want to work you.[/quote]

Tanya Traill, I think that's a bit strong, too!

I set this site up 19 years ago (time flies) to try and support what was clearly an underpaid, overworked and undervalued profession. Things have certainly moved on a lot since then, but no doubt there is still no shortage of underpaid, overworked and undervalued nurses.

That said, I have to agree with Apache's points, and I really don't think they said anything that controversial. At a very basic level, if someone comes in with an animal requiring treatment or surgery, the vet can offer that, regardless of whether or not the nurse is there. So Apache is right, the 'essential' part of the equation, by the strict definition of the word, is the vet, not the nurse.

I'm not diminishing nurses when I say that. Nor is it 'backwards thinking.' It's just the reality. I think to deny that reality stands in the way of thinking how the problems can be solved.

I also think it is simplistic to say 'there is money to pay nurses properly'.

Of course it varies hugely by area of the country, and according to how much competition there is. A practice serving the whole of Belgravia unchallenged may be in a better position to pay well than a small independent in the Gorbals, with five corporates within shouting distance.

But the bigger picture is also important. I have no figures to support the following, so perhaps I am talking out of my bum. But I don't think so.

Over the last 20 years, there have been huge advances in veterinary medicine and surgery, and the potential costs of care have skyrocketed. Look at what people spend these days at specialist referral centres. It's eye-watering. It makes me wonder just where the limit lies for what people are prepared to spend on what is, after all, just a dog (as opposed to a child). I think the profession is heading towards a situation where it will price itself out of the market.

And as general practices refer more and more cases elsewhere, so they've lost that revenue stream. So they're left trying to make more money from the basic stuff, the flea treatments and antiparasiticides, which of course are challenged by the online pharmacies.

The question is, where, in this kind of scenario, can more money be found to pay nurses a higher wage?

Strikes me that there just isn't that much (any?) more money in the existing model (unless you are fortunate enough to work in an affluent area with little competition). So my logic says that part of the solution is that practices need to find new, profitable revenue streams which nurses can take responsibility for.

I'm not meaning to sound too black and white here. Ie that nurses need to generate their own income entirely. OF COURSE veterinary nurses contribute to efficiency and profitability and safety and should be paid accordingly. I just wonder whether the current 'cake' is big enough to give everyone a big enough slice.

As to additional revenue streams, one thing I've always thought is a missed opportunity ... which is that more practices don't offer kennel facilities. I know if I was going on holiday and there was a choice of leaving the dog at some of the dodgy places round here, or my vet, I know which I would choose, and I would probably pay a small premium. I would imagine the economies of scale would also mean a kennel run by a vet would be more profitable than one run by anyone else.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

apache — Tue, 15 Oct 2019 22:54:20 GMT

Alison Clare Hickman you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there. Gone from over 10 years with no nurse to training one and enjoying the benefits of a RVN in a mixed practice. Once I get a builder tied down I will have a dedicated nurse consult room. We have maintained our VNTC status and taken on a student. I don't want to be exact on salary but she will earn more than an average salary too.

I felt my viewpoint was valid to such a thread when we have gone from no nurses [proving they are not essential] to having them and utilising them for as much as we can [she's also enrolled in SQP training]. I think the input from someone running the business and paying salaries is also valid to the discussion? It's all well and good saying nurses are underpaid, but no one seems to be looking at where that pay rise should come from? Vets are under-paid. I could make more money running another kind of business.....

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 15 Oct 2019 22:39:22 GMT

Oof, I think that's a bit strong Tanya Traill

Fair enough you don't have to want to work with apache

but they can have a place on vetnurse forum to give another viewpoint, surely, even if you don't happen to agree with them?

As it happens, I've followed apache

for quite a while and they have come around from not having an RVN in their practice to training an SVN and giving them the opportunity to really stretch their Schedule 3 skills. I am very envious of the extent of skills-stretch the nurse is given by their vet and is continuing to be given in all aspects of the practice, including (if I remember correctly) considering introduction of nurse clinics and relinquishing of jobs historically done by the vet. Rome wasn't built in a day and the vet (from what I glean) is a rural one and of traditional set up (no RVNs previously and lay staff assistants). But this is changing and the incumbent nurse is being thoroughly encouraged to work in all aspects of LA and SA work. Marvellous. I'm envious! Plus the salary paid is what the practice can afford. If the nurse continues to add profit into the practice pot, alongside the rest of the team, he/she might reap the benefit financially when their good boss can make a reward for a good job done. Result. Everyone wins.

Would I work in a supportive, and forward progressing practice (at steady speed and not making change for change's sake) that wants to grow, service their clients well and also make a profit and be good to me as an employee? Heck yes. Thumbs up from me, apache

Peace

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Tanya Traill — Tue, 15 Oct 2019 20:00:06 GMT

I personally think you have no place on the vet nurse forum and I would never want to work you.

I really hope your nurses see this post and trial this out for you and all either leave your practice to find a better job or take a few days off to see how all your vets cope.

I'm so glad I work with good vets that appreciate nurses we work together not against each other.

I'm sad to see your post but not surprised.

Also there is the money in some practices to pay nurses properly you just need to look around and find the right practice or locum there is plenty of work out and about for good nurses :).

Also if any nurses from this practice would like to pipe in on what your vet has said please do would love to hear your thought on what your vet has said.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:43:27 GMT

ChrisRossiter

I hear you, however making your practice profitable is a winner for all concerned. It is a business. It needs to make a profit, otherwise it folds. It can be done ethically. It can be done fairly. It can be done with full involvement by the entire practice team (not just vets and nurses!).

I'm all for creating unique incomes that utilises my unique nursing skills and also taking tasks from the vets I'm permitted to do so we can all create income to the best of our time, ability and remit.

I don't personally think this belittles my role as an RVN. Unless I have misunderstood what you meant?

The additional jobs I create or are gifted from the vets increase my interest in my job, keeps the team working together and hopefully, by our collective endeavours improves the practice.

Peace.

Ali h

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

molladog — Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:02:03 GMT

I SO want to work in your practice Apache.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Sal the 1st — Tue, 15 Oct 2019 08:42:00 GMT

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]

Maybe there are practices with no nurses.

[/quote]

There is no 'maybe' about it - these practices exist and often run very well without nurses. Yes good nurses are valued but in saying that it is important not to over value their importance.

We have all helped to create a system that means nurses are now scarcer than rocking horse manure by creating an unwieldy and expensive training system. In many cases we are turning out qualified nurses that are just not ready or with sufficient working skills to actually do the job - that is in spite of increased investment from both practices and students and doubling the amount of time to qualify in the case of the degree. Do you imagine it is 'free' to train nurses? What about the time people training them are not spending doing their actual job? Here's an idea to bring in some more practice revenue so the nurses can be paid more - the practice charges the students for cc or mentoring time

Scarcity or rarity does not necessarily command a premium rate - it may also create a situation where employers give up looking for the diamond and settle for swarovski and still get the job done. When that happens in sufficient numbers we have essentially just brought about our own extinction.

Please stop comparing our role to that of human medicine - we don't work in human medicine and we don't have the bottomless pit of funding to pay the kind of wages the NHS nurses command - and lets face it even the NHS can't cope with that at the minute.

I don't think you would be an ideal fit to work at our practice - we value all our staff, not just the ones with badges. Yes nurses are important but we aren't the be all to end all. We are just one part of a team and if the money isn't there it isn't there - if we want more we have to bring more in and that is as simple as I can make it.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

apache — Mon, 14 Oct 2019 21:33:35 GMT

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]The majority of vets I have ever worked with value nurses very highly.[/quote]

Oh I do value nurses highly.

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]how many practices actually allow nurses to perform schedule 3's[/quote]

We do - our nurse regularly does stitch ups, minor lump removals, skin biopsies.

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]Your views mean that the RCVS aren't bothered about changing if up.[/quote]

I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. As I said, we allow our RVN to do the full range of schedule 3 tasks, and come out on farm calls for things like blood sampling, surgery etc

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]Most practices if the nurses all went on strike, although would still run, wouldn't run anywhere near as efficiently.[/quote]

Perhaps so, hence why they are a valuable part of the team.

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]We do 5-7 ops a day. With no nurses the vets would be lucky to do 2![/quote]

Also untrue. No faster operating with a nurse, if working with lay staff vet just needs to be more organised. Used to regularly do 5-7 ops before dinner with a lay member of staff drifting off to answer the phone. Pre-med the next when you take the sleepy one out of the kennel.

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]I just find this view of extra income as belittling[/quote]

Nurses make things safer. They make it easier on the vets. The patients get better care. You can still consider them a relative luxury. They are in no way necessary. You don't need one for RCVS PSS.............

At the end of the day if you want more money you have to justify it. Create turnover and profit. Simple economics.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

ChrisRossiter — Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:55:43 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

ChrisRossiter

I see what you're driving at and I agree the team makes the business work and our vet nurse work puts into the income generating pot. Just one query for you... If there's no increase in (shared) business then there cannot be an increase in profit (put simply). So, encouraging vetnurses to drive unique income is a good thing., through offering plans and services that benefit the pet/client and referring findings to a vet exam for further workups from an original nurse consult. Yes?

[/quote]

I charge £12 for nurse consults and have rearranged our running of the day so we now have a full section of nurse consults each evening. It frees up vets to do things that aren't anal glands, 2nd Vax, post op checks. Etc.

I just find this view of extra income as belittling. Most practices if the nurses all went on strike, although would still run, wouldn't run anywhere near as efficiently.

We do 5-7 ops a day. With no nurses the vets would be lucky to do 2! That's the difference good nurses make! The consults for bloods. No nurses. Then you'd have to cut some consults for vets to allow them to hold another's patient for bloods.

It's a knock on effect and I'd say in my practice and probably every one of the 16 practices I've worked in, with no nurses, workload would be down by more than half. I'd bet my car on it!

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

ChrisRossiter — Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:48:48 GMT

Maybe there are practices with no nurses.

The majority of vets I have ever worked with value nurses very highly.

If there is a practice with just vets, then yeah, they don't need to worry about paying nurses more.

Similar to those that have cleaners and assistants!

I definitely wouldn't be wanting to work with you guys if I'm honest! Good nurses are invaluable. You obviously still have views on nursing that are years behind. In a day where we should be pushing toward clinical nurses who can diagnose and treat minor ailments and perform minor surgeries routinely (how many practices actually allow nurses to perform schedule 3's). Your views mean that the RCVS aren't bothered about changing if up.

We are decades behind human medicine in this sense! Time to change it.

How vets can demand all the work as their own, when nurses do the majority of it in my experience! Not every practice is the same. However as a proud nurse, I wouldn't stay more than a week in a practice where I'm not valued and allowed to do real nursing. Not just cleaning and the odd catheter or anaesthetic monitoring.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Sal the 1st — Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:12:53 GMT

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]

Vets cannot work without nurses.

[/quote]

they can - I know practices that have no nurses, nursing assistants, cleaners, receptionists yes but no qualified nurses

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

apache — Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:11:27 GMT

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]Vets cannot work without nurses[/quote]

Yes they can, but not the other way around. If none of our nurses turn up tomorrow it will be business as usual, not the case if no vets came into work!

Whilst I agree that nurses provide a lot of assistance to vets, there is nothing they can do as a unique task that a vet cannot. The only way you can justify additional income is if you free up vets to do other tasks.

I am supportive of vet nurses, and employ one and we are training another. Lets not get carried away and call them "essential", because they are not. Sorry to be harsh but don't get carried away.

My point still stands - there is not the money in vet practice to pay nurses or vets significantly more money. The only way is to generate unique income.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 14 Oct 2019 17:22:24 GMT

ChrisRossiter

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

ChrisRossiter — Mon, 14 Oct 2019 16:21:50 GMT

[quote user="apache"]

A generally assumed figure is that a vet needs to turnover 5X their salary each year. If you want a pay rise of X amount, how about put a proposal to your boss that if you generate 5X that figure in new work you get the money? If our nurse can generate £50,000 of new work (and still get her job done) then I'll happily pay her £10,000 more per year. I just can't see it happening.

[/quote]

Whilst I understand the facts and points of turnover and salaries. The needing nurses to "create turnover of X amount" is redundant.

You are missing the point entirely.

Vets cannot work without nurses. A fair way of looking at it is a proportion of a vets turnover must be accredited to nursing staff.

Say an example. A vet charges £120 for full bloods. Two nurses hold and take the bloods from the fractious cat. I see that as £60 to vet. £30 to each nurse.

A vet advises IVFT for the day for price of £100. I would accredit £40 to the vet and £60 to nurses. As the nurses usually are the one putting a line in, setting up the fluids, attaching, sorting out drip pump, and monitoring the line and patient for the day.

This "vet turnover of X amount" is outdated and why the nursing population is dwindling and on the greater part, deeply unhappy.

A way to do it is this.

The practice has made X amount profit this year. Let's say £100k.

You have 2 vets and 3 nurses.

The owner of the practice takes 25%

25% goes to practice improvements.

25% to vets salaries/bonus and 25% to nurses salaries/bonus.

Why is this fair? Because without an owner you don't have a practice. Without up to date equipment you can't do the job.

Without vets you can't do the job and dammit, without nurses you definitely can't do the job!

The days of vets bonuses for turnover over X amount should be in the past. The days of owners being greedy should be in the past and the days of nurses bring grossly underpaid, underappreciated and unrecognised for the insane amount of work they do should be long gone in the past!

Else nurses will die out. Vets won't be able to do the job by themselves. Businesses won't thrive.

After so long of practices looking at it in one way, which leads to burnout of staff, high staff turnover, nurses and vets leaving the profession, we need to think in a different way and move with the times.

What would I know?

Via one route I've made my practice a net profit of £25k this year. I'd rather that invested in all staffs salaries equally or put into the practice. Not taking into account all the other ways I have increased turnover and profit, or at least been a huge part of it.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 12 Oct 2019 15:17:06 GMT

Absolutely spot on Sal the 1st

Its no good selling something the client or pet doesn't need or will never return to buy again. You need to make yourself a Farmer not a Hitman i.e. keep your crops growing and reseeding and growing again in fertile soil (client reruns to you for great advice, service and products that mean something to them and their pet) as opposed to getting a one time financial hit and never seeing them again... it's the art of probing listening and asking the questions to find out what the client and pet needs, and you matching features and benefits of your product/services to these; and the client then buys it from you (instead of you selling it to them). A subtle difference! You need to know your products and services well. You need to ask for the sale once you know your client wants to buy. Never a pressured sell but an informed purchase.

Hth

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Sal the 1st — Sat, 12 Oct 2019 00:11:11 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

Now the sticky bit. How to encourage the team to engage with the reward in offering the services to clients. To view the upselling as a promotion of something useful' rather than 'force selling' is the best way ime. To mention the benefits of a service and how it is good for the pet/client feels good and the client buys into the information. The last bit is asking the client go ahead with it.

Hth

[/quote]

I used to work for a corporate and we were encouraged to 'sell, sell, sell!' I am very good at selling when it comes down to the line. The thing is - and I knew this from day one - a hard hit on the first visit may well have cost you a client -something my employers either didn't know or more likely chose to ignore because short term single hit profit was more attactive than a longterm client.

Sure I could turn a 'free' nurse consult to give a 2nd vacc into a couple of hundred quid and did quite a few times -vaccination for life policy , big bag of food, lead and collar, microchip (before it became law) and a kong toy or two easy peasy but then you had a client that would be coming back every year for vaccination that would generate a zero charge , a client whose dog either didn't like the food or the client had found it cheaper down at PAH or online so would never buy it from you again - in other words you were only going to hit them the once, it didn't feel good to me and probably even less so to the client.

Much better is to sell the client what they actually need rather than what you 'want' to sell them. If you are honest about what you are selling and why it will sit better with you and the client and they are much more likely to respect and value your input in their pets care, and to invest in the future. Even doing it this way over the course of a year a nurse can generate a fair amount and can more than earn their keep.

The one thing I will say tho are that nurse consults should not be free if your wage is sales dependent. If that consult wouldn't be free for a vet then it shouldn't be for a nurse (nail clips etc all take the same time done by a vet or a nurse) otherwise you have no chance of hitting targets - and you should be setting targets and reaping the rewards when those targets are hit.

I do agree with Apache that some of the figures being chased for a nursing wage are unrealistic though and that a practice would most likely not be able to sustain them - unless it employs fewer staff working harder - especially if you are not living in an affluent area

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

apache — Fri, 11 Oct 2019 22:15:47 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

Personally I feel 18k to 20k is still underpaid for a newly qualified nurse and 25k definitely underpaid for HRVN.

I am currently paid £25k for 38 hours and not a head nurse and only 4 years qualified.

[/quote]

There's just not the money in veterinary practice for that to change very much. To give you some context - if I raised salaries of all our vets and nurses by £10,000 per year I would have no profit and have to close the practice. We have to remember that we are in an environment where vet costs are climbing and owners are not willing to spend any amount we need to charge to pay these higher salaries. It's just not possible. I also think you see a cap on nurse earnings of £25/30K as that is where new grad vets start, and harsh as it sounds they generate vastly more turnover and profit for the practice.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:07:19 GMT

Hello again, well done for braving the storm and coming away with more insight as to what the real issues are that bother your team. Now then, it seems that (from what you found) the major cause of discontent is having to 'do more for less pay'? You said that the upselling of products and services was previously not so focussed on and the team could do or not do as they preferred? Now the focus is on and it's causing stress. Understandable. It's a change in direction and not everyone is comfortable with promoting the benefits of a service as 'selling' feels alien and therefore 'more work'.

You also detail that the SA side of the practice has seen a downturn in profitability? Hence no pay raises on the table. Again understandable.

I can see a twinning plan coming together! Twin the practice of upselling plans and services with the increase in income and the practice should eventually be a position to make financial rewards to its team.

Some training is probably needed with the team to adjust their understanding what and why they need to do this. Have a laugh being a client and with team members explaining/giving info about the services to you. Pizza and Promoting makes Pounds makes Pay raises (potentially!).

Hth

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

VetNurse Anon a/c — Thu, 10 Oct 2019 21:22:50 GMT

Hi All. OP here!

I'm sorry that I didn't get back to you all before now!

Thank you so much for your amazing advice! This site is really a God send!

Firstly I have no issue discussing money. Since being promoted 1 year ago my wages are 23k (£11.20 per hour) I am 8 years qualified and I believe I have proved even before the take over and job promotion that I am a hard working VN who cares about the patients and clients but also how the business is ran. The practice I work in was originally ran by Large animal vets who didn't really have an interest/or understanding in the small animal side so I did kind of have a HVN role but just not in stone. I do think this is too little for the amount of stress and pressure I am put under but also the amount of work that I put in. I am in a rural practice where my wage did not go over £8 per hour until our corporate took over so I am grateful that it has increased so much. The other RVN in our practice is qualified 3 years and is on 20.5K. All our students and ANAs are on min wage.

Secondly we had our meeting last Monday and I was so nervous! It only took 3hours...(I need to get better at this stuff). The big issue is money and that more and more is being asked of them (health plans and insurance promotions, protocols , etc.) but they are not getting paid any extra. I think part of the problem is that because we didn't have the leadership before take over, these things weren't focused on and that people kind of got way just doing what they liked. I have asked our PM about pay rises and really its a no go because our small animal side has slowed down a lot in the last 12-18months. I suggested to the nurses to have a little bit of a drive on certain things e.g. health plans or insurance, and by keeping a record of this they can show how much work they are putting in in the hope of pay rises, although this was not guaranteed. I got the feeling that they came away from the meeting much the same as they went in. I explained that our company also has an annual pay review policy which is coming up shortly.

I spoke to one of the girls 121 afterwards and she said she felt it went well but that the proof will be in the pudding. I do get the feeling though that unless a significant pay rise were to happen a few won't be happy anyway.

I feel a bit demotivated after it all to be honest as I tried to get past the money talk to see if there was anything practically that we could do collectively to help or to make work more enjoyable. Honestly I do not think Vet nursing is a job anyone gets into because of money but I found it hard saying this because I didn't want them to think I was writing off their concerns or issues. That may sound a little controversial, don't get me wrong though I know how valuable our qualification is and how skilled we all are!! I do slightly feel like the tail is waging the dog at the minute.

Thanks again guys x

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

VetNurse Anon a/c — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 14:35:02 GMT

Personally I feel 18k to 20k is still underpaid for a newly qualified nurse and 25k definitely underpaid for HRVN.

I am currently paid £25k for 38 hours and not a head nurse and only 4 years qualified.

NOT THE ORIGINAL ANON POSTER BY THE WAY.

Its a difficult one as been in previous positions myself and massively underpaid, where felt undervalued. First job paid 16k as a newly qualified and couldnt pay my rent or bills. At 30 year old as well probably not even the minimum wage. It does demotivate you if you feel you arnt adequately paid for your skills and qualifications but also I found myself underutilised and bored in my job so ended up taking a year away from nursing went and worked in a nursing home looking aftr residents with dementia and felt more motivated and like I was valued and made a difference. I have only recently returned to vet nursing after some hard considering. I now feel more valued but our practice but is nurse led which makes a difference and decent earnings which helps us earn a decent living. A nurse owns practice, we also charge for our nurse clinics so find clients value and appreciate our advice more that I have seen in clinics that dont charge!!

It is very important as you say to have a frank discussion with everyone and see how everyone feels.

RE: Undervalued staff.. what is a inexperienced HN to do

apache — Sat, 28 Sep 2019 16:11:03 GMT

OP - as you are annon are you willing to say what you get paid as head nurse and what the other nurses are on?

My 'feeling' is that newly qualified on £18/20K and Head nurse on £25k. Obviously varies a bit, but I think the first issue is are you underpaid or are there other issues going on?

As head nurse I think you should sound out the nurses and find out what the issues are. Ask the nurses themselves if they have solutions to make things better. At this stage I would use it as a fact finding mission and not promise the team anything. Take your findings to the clinical director and discuss what can be changed or improved. Then go back to the nurses with a plan.

You are in a difficult position as you need to keep the team happy, and some [potentially even small] financial gesture may be in order. The thing to balance is how you can make some of that back? Do your nurses do many clinics? Any opportunities for them to free up some vet time and make some money back for the practice etc.