Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 13:40:18 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]this is ALL about first and foremost transparency and then getting BOTH sides to think about worth, giving nurses a greater sense of self-worth and employers a greater sense of the value of their new employee.[/quote]

Yay! This is what I am getting behind.

I am probably too much of a glass half-full (tbh it's usually overflowing ) so I appreciate balance to my Tigger-Like enthusiasms. Thanks for your explanation Anon - TEAM VITNIRY!!!!!!!! Pax.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

VetNurse Anon a/c — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 11:32:24 GMT

I think your idea and ethos is lovely, i'm really trying not to come across as a pessimist, I am more of an optimist who is wary of being disappointed. I hope it comes together as you envisage it.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 11:16:33 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]this was all linked to the discussion about job applicants wanting to see salary's displayed, which I think is actually a very pressing matter having a real impact on peoples lives.[/quote]

I agree. I have personally emailed the biggest advertisers on VetNurse Jobs to offer them a 50% discount if they display the salary for all jobs posted by end of 22nd August. I have discussed with developers adding a reminder and a link to the research from the job advert form where you specify the salary.

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]That some people are intrinsically better than others at a job. This may be true if comparing the average person to Stephen Hawkins but most people are average. [/quote]

Now that is a whole new (fascinating) discussion, perhaps worthy of a tangent. I was about to disagree with your first point, but then agree with your second, which would then blow my argument about the first (if that makes sense!).

In other words, yes:

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]The likelihood that two average people holding the same qualification could have very different ability's to do what they are qualified to do is not likely.[/quote]

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]But if your plan to list skills on here is helpful then great.[/quote]

Well, as this very helpful discussion (thank you) develops, I think the skill set would be helpful, because I think it would give nurses greater self-confidence and awareness of the value they bring to the business, plus it could help match people to practices. But I am thinking now that a reference would be essential too.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

VetNurse Anon a/c — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 11:00:39 GMT

Hi Arlo,

I do know who you are and about you and I at no time thought that you personally were trying to undermine nurses. I have misinterpreted what you wrote as it seemed like double speak, stating that applicants do have the right expectations about what the vet will pay (ok, so wage is clear) but they have the wrong expectations about what they are worth (ok so wage is clear but they are unworthy) ultimately being the applicants fault for over valuing themselves. I found this deeply disturbing since this was all linked to the discussion about job applicants wanting to see salary's displayed, which I think is actually a very pressing matter having a real impact on peoples lives. If this was just a thread saying lets look at these additional skills and strengths that we can add to the job section to better match employers to employees, I wouldn't have had anything to say about.

I still believe that this vet is approaching this all wrong. If a wage range was given for new grads positions with job description expressing expected level of competency then the grad will know in advance if their idea of a wage is way off. The problem remains whether this is about a vet, nurse, teacher, police officer, fireman etc etc, everyone needs to know the lowest that their starting wage might be.

Each to their own I suppose, I really do think a lot of these problems are arising from a mistaken idea that we live in a meritocracy. That some people are intrinsically better than others at a job. This may be true if comparing the average person to Stephen Hawkins but most people are average. The likelihood that two average people holding the same qualification could have very different ability's to do what they are qualified to do is not likely. Other facets of their personality would be much more important in this regard. I really do think that people are judgemental creatures and also quick to forget. The new recruit will suddenly one day just adapt and fit in like they have always been there. But if your plan to list skills on here is helpful then great.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 10:48:30 GMT

[quote user="apache"]I pick staff mainly on personality.[/quote]

apache that leads to an interesting (I think) thought. Perhaps instead of a skills matrix, a skills and character matrix, whereby colleagues endorse people for particular character traits. But maybe it would be too difficult to draw up a list of traits that are equally attractive but different (ie would most employers pick the extrovert over the introvert?)

And perhaps that is overthinking. Perhaps what would be simpler, easier and better is simply to allow members to give each other a reference (and to guide them as to what they should put in a reference - ie character and skills).

Anon - not sure why you are anon! Everything you say is perfectly sensible and reasonable, and not controversial.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

VetNurse Anon a/c — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 09:53:28 GMT

Hi Sal the 1st,

I just don't agree that the reality is very different in the majority of cases. I believe that the Qualification does denote successful ability in nursing. As Apache said, during the interview it is more important to ascertain that the employee will fit in, but that is based on other traits. From what I have seen there is a recurring pattern of new people being considered 'substandard' until they pick up on the 'ways' of the practice and then they assimilate very well and are considered 'good' and everyone stops thinking of them as new and just one of the team. It is a rarity that someone really cannot do the job. The issues I have seen are not related to nursing, more things like laziness or moodiness and so on.

(degrading = causing a loss of self-respect; humiliating) A bit strong maybe but not intentionally implying prostitution . I meant that the exposure to advertising and interactions/interviews with a prospective employer that are full of promise about generous salary's but end in an offer well below what you can reasonably live on can potentially feel humiliating and destroy your self respect.

However there seems to be a confusion about what I am saying, everyone replying seems to think I am talking about specific numbers? why I don't know? The issue is that a wage whether it is a starting wage or wage range should be easily obtainable. The amount on offer would be the employers choice obviously? It is an indicator about whether applying for the job is even possible. I have never stated an amount I expect RVNs to be paid, I am stating a wage should be indicated.

Again I fundamentally disagree, in my opinion having an indication of a wage would not lead to more disappointment then having to jump through hoops to obtain it and then find it wouldn't be enough. And in most cases nurses concerns are that it won't be enough to get by on, yet these responses are implying RVNs are disappointed they are not getting really rich. I just don't understand where this disconnect is in understanding that this is not about what nurses would like but more about what nurses cannot cope without?

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 09:09:59 GMT

Anon ... so ... hmm ... I have read in detail and two things to say at the outset:

a) Again, you have misinterpreted what I wrote about the vet at the start of this thread, because I was not clear that he was actually talking about vets, not nurses (and his example to me was the number of vets who have the qualification but who turn up for the job unable to do a bitch spay).

b) That does not make you wrong about much of what you say ... just that I am sure the vet wouldn't argue with you!!!

c) I feel the STARTING point for all this is transparency in job adverts over pay. You saw the survey I did on this, which seems to have generated a lot of interest and awareness in the profession. I think it also sends a powerful message (if you advertise without a salary, you are probably throwing away at least a third of the cost).

d) It was ME that was thinking how the verified skill set could be applied to vet nurses, and when I talk about getting nurses to think about their worth, I am thinking how this will raise their confidence and help them to NOT settle for less than their worth! And actually, by conveying that worth to employers, they also should be happy to pay for that worth.

You talk about the standard qualification having a worth, and that is, I agree, true. But time and time again, I hear from people how there is often a mismatch between what is trained and what is actually needed in practice. And even when the basics are trained, clearly different practices will always be looking for different skillsets.

So my thinking is that the system I propose would:

a) add a new field in the job advert where employers would be asked to select from a drop down list of required skills, which could include consults, surgical, reception, marketing, etc etc.

b) VetNurse members could then search for jobs which play to their perceived strengths (and also see, at a glance, which things most practices are looking for, guiding their decision as to any future training they might choose to undertake).

c) VetNurse members would also be able to add the same skill sets to their own profiles (verified by colleagues / employers).

d) VetNurse members would be able to mark their profile as a) Actively looking for a job, b) Not actively looking for a job or c) Not looking for a job. Employers who advertise would also be able to see who matches the job skill set and has set their profile to a) or b).

In summary, this is ALL about first and foremost transparency and then getting BOTH sides to think about worth, giving nurses a greater sense of self-worth and employers a greater sense of the value of their new employee.

Anon, there really is nothing insidious in this from my point of view. I don't know who you are, or whether you know my track record, but I have been championing the role of nurses for nearly 20 years now, and the very last thing I would do is anything which undermines you in any way whatsoever.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 08:45:42 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]As I clearly stated I am expressing my own reaction to the comment by the vet employer, which I find insidious. [/quote]

Anon, I haven't finished reading both your posts, but feel I need to leap in and say NO, NO, NO, you have misunderstood the vet employer (because I was not clear enough).

He approached me to talk about VETS, not nurses! It was ME that then thought, 'wouldn't this be a great thing for vet nurses too'.

I shall read the rest of your second post and come back in more detail!

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Sal the 1st — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 08:16:45 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

The standardisation of the RVN qualification would suggest that anyone holding that qualification has the capacity to be inducted into working well to the full capacity of that role.

[/quote]

And whilst standardisation may suggest that - the reality can be very different sadly

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

the current system of being offered what we subjectively are considered worth is degrading.

[/quote]

but isn't this the case in ANY job. Whatever we think we are worth when it comes down to it we are only worth as much as somebody is prepared to pay - which might be very different from personal expectation. A qualification is not an automatic entitlement to a certain wage, it isn't monopoly and it isn't the 'pass go collect £200 card'. Even if an advert gave a wage range - there would still be disappointment if the interviewee wasn't offered the top whack from day one. A more realistic way may be to give a starting wage but then some wouldn't be happy with that either. I don't really understand the 'degrading' bit - if you are wanting to be employed you are essentially selling your time and services just like anybody else in any job to somebody who wants to pay for them. 'Degrading' makes it sound more like prostitution rather than veterinary nursing.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

VetNurse Anon a/c — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 06:07:55 GMT

Dear Alison Clare Hickman,

Yes, exactly, 'we agree on salary in advert and a good description of the role'. Not sure why you had question marks or felt any need to explain yourself? As I clearly stated I am expressing my own reaction to the comment by the vet employer, which I find insidious. I believe he knows fully well how to interview to find out if an applicant is appropriate and just wants to avoid explaining why people are unhappy with the wages he offers by shifting the blame and walking away whistling. All the while we're off on a wild goose chase to justify our worth. If this thread is about wanting to write a list of skills employers might want in order to explain to RVNs who over value themselves that they aren't worth what they think they are worth; then ok. Of course I acknowledged I may be alone in my views, and you can approach this however you like, if you feel you have good ideas to promote employee/employer outcomes then that is great. I realise you are on board with this thread in a different way and want to create this list of 'required skills' and I have no reason to be judgemental about your approach. I don't want to stifle the conversation, far from it, I am very interested in other people's opinions.

Dear Apache,

Yes, exactly, a decision on whether someone is 'worth' employing is decided based on your own particular criteria during the interview and recruitment process. You seem to have a strange agenda within your reply, you comment "I'd love to pay VNs £40k and vets £100k like in human medicine but there is not the money in veterinary practice and there never will be. If you wanted to earn that kind of money then you should have become a human nurse. I'm glad I'm not a doctor!" Therefore belittling and trying to shut down the discussion. You inexplicably make a statement which actually doesn't relate to the need for a salary to be available for a job hunting RVN.

I had said "Qualified, Registered Veterinary Nurses who typically are on a low income might need to know whether they can live on the wage being offered" and you respond by implying I expect RVN wages to be £40K and because I stupidly expect that you advise me that I should leave the profession and work in human nursing. Adding that you are glad that you yourself don't work as a doctor... not something you would enjoy of course, but for the money grabbing nurse who trained to work with animals this is a valid thing to say right? I would be very interested to know what prompted you to say that to me and hear your explanation on how your comment isn't meant to be a form of aggressive misdirection.

This is my understanding of how this all began. There was a post about how nurses love their jobs, know there is more to job satisfaction and feeling fulfilled than money but that a basic salary needed to be available in order to even begin to consider whether to apply for the job. The lack of an advertised salary was off putting because it often took a long process before that question was answered and so those jobs would be overlooked. All the responses to that discussion were in agreement it was about whether or not the salary was something they could live on. No commenter ever expressed an expectation to become rich, it was clearly about knowing if living costs could be managed and by extension what quality of life they might have. Other important factors to job satisfaction i.e. a desire to run nurse consults were an accepted part of what attracted RVNs but this discussion was most specifically about the issue of needing to know what the income will be.

This was said of the vet employer. "He said that his problem (as an employer) didn't appear to be wrong expectations by candidates about what he is prepared to pay, but wrong expectations about they are worth." This does not explain why he does not want to state a basic salary for what he believes RVNs within his company are worth. If he is implying that RVNs come to the interview and ask for a salary of (according to Apache) £40k which he refers to as "his problem" then why not alleviate that problem by having advertised the wage? If he is implying that once he does tell them the wage they then ask for more, but are not worth more to him, then possibly they may accept his lower offer or he decline to employ that candidate? Some people might call this negotiating... others obviously see it as RVNs being deluded.

It's all about the context, I have a problem because this was posited as the requirement of an employer who needs RVNs to realise they just aren't worth paying much. That it is not his wages but the nurses ability that is poor, and so the seed of doubt is sown and the sensible request for salary clarity begins to be eroded. Forget the survey, forget the comradery through discussing this, forget imparting the importance of salary range to employers because... an employer thinks it problematic that RVNs want more than he wants to pay. Ironically if the salary's were advertised maybe RVNs would know what the going rate is.

I have no problem with the concept of writing a clear job advert with a list of required skills, who would have a problem with that? This is already the perceived wisdom though, write an accurate job description - obviously? Why would anyone need other people to come up with a list when there are too many variables, just state the job you are advertising and what you need from the applicant in your own advert? Applicants would be stating their skills, experience, 'worth' in the covering letter - obviously? None of this has anything to do with displaying the basic salary. If there is a problem with expectations on both interviewer and interviewee's part then be clearer in the advert?

I'm reacting to the comment by an employer and how I perceive his manipulation and avoidance of an uncomfortable truth. He knows that providing a salary might reduce his position of power while interviewing. This problem is systemic, from the offering of biscuits in job adverts to the idea that RVNs and 16 year old work experience kids are essentially the same thing. That nurses who express a desire to perform schedule 3 procedures are accused of wanting to be mini vets. That RVNs didn't have the brains to become a Vet despite plenty being degree holders in different disciplines'. That RVNs should simply re train for a different job if they are concerned about how they might pay their bills with a total lack of comprehension that Veterinary nursing is usually a professional career choice.

I feel strongly that my opinion on this should be out there, even if it is a lone voice, it is a genuine and visceral response to that vet's message and Apache's snide response too. It is my opinion that they both need to take a look at themselves, their opinions of nurses and their understanding of how valid the frustration is for nurses seeking employment when no salary range is forthcoming. They are entitled to their own beliefs about what RVNs should be paid and are worth. RVNs should know what their salary range is and job description so they can go on to make their own value judgement on the 'worth' of that job to them.

I have no problem with other people responding positively to the vets message and I do have a sense of humour about the impression I must be giving off to people who do not understand or agree with me. But I do mean every word I say. :)

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

apache — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 23:46:58 GMT

I pick staff mainly on personality. I can train someone to do practical skills or be better at consulting, I can't train you not to be annoying. I have to spend a lot of time with you. That's actually my priority. The second priority (as I think I'm pretty anon) is if I give you a job are you going to stay? Local connections, a partner etc count in your favour. I've had staff move half way across the country and they inevitably leave after a period of time. I'd rather take on a local girl and put them through college and keep them, than offer 50p per hour more than average to entice someone from far away.

I'd love to pay VNs £40k and vets £100k like in human medicine but there is not the money in veterinary practice and there never will be. If you wanted to earn that kind of money then you should have become a human nurse. I'm glad I'm not a doctor!

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 23:42:11 GMT

Dear Anon,

I have approached this as a simple exercise of how better can an advert *attract* candidates to apply for a role? A statement of salary (range/base) is one way and avoids the sadness/wasting of time of having to find out only at the interview stage that the salary does not meet with expectations.

Clearly, an advert therefore needs a description of the skills/experience that *adds value to* the basic RVN qualification, which is, as you state, standardised and so needs no explanation. In this instance the 'worth' (benefit) of the candidate is measured by their enhanced skills-set/experience. Hence my example of an enhanced Consulting Nurse description. (I disagree with you that practices are not looking for nurses to consult - I have yet to go to a practice in my neck of the woods that doesn't want this skill/encourage the skill).

Advertise for required additional skills and attract relevant candidates - whittled down at interview for compatibility with the team.

Avoid bland statements such as "competitive salary" (means nothing) and put down a salary (range/base) commensurate for the job role expected. Clearly this is entirely within the power of the employer to decide what to pay as it is within the power of an RVN not to accept it and move on...

Comparisons between adverts/employers for similar role should level the playing field... usually those offering more will attract more applicants one would have thought...

I read it as that the employer whose comment instigated Arlo's thread here had encountered RVN's who, they felt, had over-valued their skills/experience/education in comparison to their salary expectations. So, in seeking to improve communication, a better worded advert should attract candidates with relevant skills/experience and ones whom already know what to expect to be offered, thereabouts, in salary accordingly. Thus generally avoiding the 'over-valuing' as far as the employer is concerned?

Up to the employer to offer to pay the RVN what the role is *worth* to the employer and for the RVN to decide whether they feel their skills are *worth* this value placed on them.

Hope I've explained myself - I've re-written it a dozen times to make it as clear as I can. I think the end result is we both agree the following:

Salary in adverts? YES.

A good description of the role? YES.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

VetNurse Anon a/c — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 20:42:13 GMT

Sorry to say this but it has really hit a nerve with me.

I realise that this is about coming up with constructive ideas for better outcomes for employer/employee. I realise I may be alone in the way this makes me feel but I just have to express my reaction to the comment by the vet employer.

As reasonable and innocent as it seems to want to bring up a nurses worth in response to nurses' wishing to know the wage on offer; there is an imbalance of power in this dynamic. If recruiting an RVN rather than auxiliary staff, then as professionals with a standardised qualification there is an already quantifiable 'worth' that can be applied to that person. The onus is on the employer placing the advert to describe who they are trying to recruit and if they want specific additional skills. For instance if they want nurses to consult then that should be in the advert, however in my experience a lot of practices actively do not want nurses to consult so experience in this would not be valued.

I believe that this response by the business owner with a good income (albeit hard earned and deserved) to the suggestion that Qualified, Registered Veterinary Nurses who typically are on a low income might need to know whether they can live on the wage being offered comes from quite an unpleasant mindset. It is a form of belittling and shutting down of the discussion as it tries to turn the question back on itself (much like the endemic victim blaming in our society). If a wage is stated and a job advert is clear then their 'worth' can be ascertained during an interview or trial period. Of course some people are naturally better at some things i.e. especially good with clients, especially good communicators, especially good with the animals, especially good with practicalities; the employer is going to ask for references which should indicate these things. Any candidate who does not meet the expectations would not be offered the job. Whenever you start a new job it takes a little while to learn the 'ways' of this particular practice. The standardisation of the RVN qualification would suggest that anyone holding that qualification has the capacity to be inducted into working well to the full capacity of that role.

I think it is ignorant to suggest that offering a wage when advertising a job is not possible in case you have applicants who are not worth paying that wage to. Advertise your job clearly? Read the CV's and references? Interview the candidates before deciding whether to offer them the job? This vet's response is actually an example of why we need to see the wage on offer before we waste our time and lose our own sense of self worth, the current system of being offered what we subjectively are considered worth is degrading.

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 19:05:25 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]I absolutely agree with 'worth' and would more correctly explain it as 'business worth' for an employer to better explain it to a prospective employee... [/quote]

And now you mention it, the reverse is probably true sometimes, too. ie to help candidates better understand and display their 'worth'.

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]*Consulting Nurse: has experience setting up/running nurse consults* A preferred applicant will have evidence of running income generating consults[/quote]

Exactly!

Now what else?

RE: Required skills in a vet nurse job applicant

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:31:12 GMT

I absolutely agree with 'worth' and would more correctly explain it as 'business worth' for an employer to better explain it to a prospective employee... To put this is an advert...

So - for example an RVN key skill for a GP advert (looking at it from an employer point of view) is:

*Consulting Nurse: has experience setting up/running nurse consults* A preferred applicant will have evidence of running income generating consults