Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 12:57:35 GMT

Same here.

You said we all want different things - a diabetic, for example wants chapter and verse on what the plan is for insulin imports. They are not getting it. It just gets more ridiculous by the day and I think that if someone who once thought that this was a good idea is still convinced that it is in the face of all that has happened since the referendum, then there is little left to be able to argue about.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Tue, 03 Sep 2019 06:32:21 GMT

not an argument at all. It is what it is. You see what is happening now as an affront to democracy but at the same time ignoring the fact that it was a democratic vote that said we leave. You cannot have it both ways. You argue that leavers are damaging the future for your children but at the same time, on your own admission, are wanting this to string out as long as you can and in the process damaging the economy of the country - so I reckon you are doing a pretty good job of damaging the future for your offspring all by yourself. I could say a lot more but would probably get me a ban.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Mon, 02 Sep 2019 20:19:32 GMT

And there's the whole Brexit argument in a nutshell.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Mon, 02 Sep 2019 19:13:52 GMT

well you could be waiting a long time as far as I am concerned - life is too short and I don't feel the need to defend my choice. I'm as entitled to my choice as you are yours.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Mon, 02 Sep 2019 18:15:54 GMT

We seem to have digressed again. But yes, we live in a free country (although the current government stating that they will simply ignore the law - today's news - does make you wonder) and no, we don't all want the same. I just don't want other people's choices to impact negatively on my son's entire future. And I'm STILL waiting for a decent argument as to how it won't..

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 21:00:03 GMT

https://www.countryliving.com/uk/wildlife/countryside/a20739569/blue-flag-beaches-england/

the beaches are actually improving year on year - and that has little to do with central government it has more to do with local individuals who care about their environment. People who don't just play the blame game for everything that goes wrong but get their hands dirty and do something about it. If even a 10th of the people taking part in protests went out and did an hour of litter picking or gave an hour of their time for voluntary work within their own communities and encouraged others to do the same or better then this whole country would be a better place to live.

you can't blame whatever government for absolutely everything. A lot of what is wrong now is down to us as individuals. If as individuals we don't start taking some responsibility then the failure as you see it is largely down to individuals, and whilst you appear to see those that voted for brexit as having failed you then they may equally see you who wants remain as having failed them. We don't all live the same lives and we don't all want the same but that doesn't make somebody who doesn't live the same life as you wrong and equally it doesn't make them right.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 16:17:53 GMT

My mum who grew up by the sea told me about how the beaches used to be. I think that anyone who thinks our home-grown dunderpates are likely to do a better job is kidding themselves! Especially the Tories. We'll get control back of our seas, and then they will sell to the highest bidder!

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 07:41:37 GMT

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]what we stand to gain[/quote]

I think you can really sum up what we have to gain in one sentence: an accountable democracy, ie one where laws are made in our own country by people we elect.

That of course has a massive impact on every aspect of our national life.

I find it really strange that you could argue that you need to be a member of the EU to have high standards of animal welfare, clean beaches etc.

It feels to me very similar to the old credo that you had to believe in god to be a good person, or have a good set of morals.

Of course you don't

And in the case of the laws of this country, I would argue that you are much more likely to get the laws you want by having an accountable democracy, rather than a distant gravy train. Beaches getting smelly? Then vote out the party that allowed them to get smelly.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 21:56:52 GMT

Nothing to do with the moral high ground. Just still waiting for some solid information as to what we stand to gain against what we lose. It hasn't stacked up yet and I'm not holding my breath.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 23:20:27 GMT

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]

I still haven't heard a pro-Brexit argument that doesn't fall apart under scrutiny

[/quote]

selective hearing? - and whats the view like from the moral high ground?

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 22:16:44 GMT

It would be interesting to ask them if they think their lot is likely to be better after Brexit, why did Jeremy Hunt recently pledge a several billion pound POST BREXIT bailout for the industry..

Brexit or no Brexit, indiscriminately scooping up entire shoals of fish (including the juvenile ones) with nets that can be miles long is never going to be sustainable for anyone really is it. It happens down here too - you see the pair trawlers working close to the shore, then the sea is dead for weeks. But we seem to have digressed again. I still haven't heard a pro-Brexit argument that doesn't fall apart under scrutiny, apart from the one about the EU Food Refrigeration Regulations compromising the freedom of the Women's Institute to hold cake sales.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 21:51:10 GMT

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]

I am an obsessive recreational sea fisherman myself, so I follow the topic with interest.

[/quote]

but possibly not with as much interest as the poor bleeders whose livelihood is dependent on it. Visit Grimsby - better still share your opinion with some of the dockworkers - if you survive it might just change the way you look at things.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 18:15:30 GMT

As far as I'm concerned we pretty much already had those things. We do not participate in the Schengen agreement. The accountable democracy part is laughable in the face of what's just happened!

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 10:14:20 GMT

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]The stalling can go on forever as far as I'm concerned :) [/quote]

I couldn't possibly disagree more I'm just so bored of this whole Brexit shambles, I'm losing the will to live.

Much more importantly, I really believe that this failure to conclude the situation one way or another is doing this country more damage than either remaining, or leaving.

As it is, of course, the country voted to leave. Leaving is a bit like natural contraception. You can't be a bit in, or a bit out! People voted out. Full stop. We need to get on with it.

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]Then I would still have the freedom to live, work and retire in 28 countries, have my human rights protected, have higher standards of animal welfare, clean beaches, a clean environment, clean drinking water, strict safety standards on food and goods, protection of endangered species and habitats, minimum paid annual leave, a frictionless Irish border, membership of the world's largest trading bloc..[/quote]

Apart from the freedom to live, work and retire in 28 countries (which I personally think is hopelessly idealistic anyway), there's no reason to think most of those things won't remain. We don't need to be in the EU to have clean beaches or high animal welfare standards!

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]Again I ask, what is it that proponents of Brexit think they have won? [/quote]

I don't think anyone has won anything yet. And I don't write as a strong proponent of Brexit (I voted remain, though I probably wouldn't do so again). But the things Brexit proponents are fighting for are: an accountable democracy, control over our own laws (which should give us a commercial advantage at a time of huge socio-technological change), and control over immigration.

You may not want any of these things, but you can surely accept it is perfectly reasonable and understandable that others might (and evidently did).

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 00:17:29 GMT

I appreciate that the CFP is a contentious issue. I am an obsessive recreational sea fisherman myself, so I follow the topic with interest. But if left to our own devices, the people who you speak about would be in the same position sooner or later anyway due to depleted stocks from overfishing. Historically that has been the case.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:18:33 GMT

family yes - fish quotas, fishing grounds. whole communities wrecked. Perhaps when it does affect you you could loose some of the smugness

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:03:32 GMT

Has the UK being a member of the EU affected you negatively? If so, how? You could be the very first person out of dozens to be able to answer this question for me!

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 19:30:04 GMT

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]

The stalling can go on forever as far as I'm concerned :)

[/quote]

until it affects you directly

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 13:50:18 GMT

The stalling can go on forever as far as I'm concerned :) Then I would still have the freedom to live, work and retire in 28 countries, have my human rights protected, have higher standards of animal welfare, clean beaches, a clean environment, clean drinking water, strict safety standards on food and goods, protection of endangered species and habitats, minimum paid annual leave, a frictionless Irish border, membership of the world's largest trading bloc...

But what does all that stuff matter.

Again I ask, what is it that proponents of Brexit think they have won? (Apart for the super-rich). Do they really think that Johnson, Gove, JRM and the obscenely-rich owners of the Daily Express have their best interests at heart?

It's absolutely baffling.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 07:43:31 GMT

well it got things moving - that was my only point, the stalling has gone on far too long and with the prospect of more stalling to come somebody had to do something and if this focuses certain people to start making agreements and decisions rather than looking for more excuses

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 00:50:22 GMT

Yeah, restoring parliamentary sovereignty by preventing them from having a say!! And this is democracy..?!

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Thu, 29 Aug 2019 00:39:55 GMT

Sweet!

at last things are moving again! whether you voted leave or stay, whether we bang out without a chute or folks now put more energy into making agreements rather than making mischief, love him or hate him Boris may have just delivered an effective laxative to get things shifting.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:01:47 GMT

Independent report just come out saying that no deal exit will likely put us into recession. This country has gone stark raving mad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49027889

Boris Johnson talking about proroguing parliament to prevent MPs from voting down a no deal exit - so we are restoring parliamentary sovereignty by stopping parliament to prevent MPs from voting..? You couldn't make it up!!

Rabid Brexit fanatics wanting to over-ride parliament, the potential breakup of the UK, selling off the NHS to Trump and risking returning to civil war in Ireland. And people are still lapping up the lies and vacuous soundbytes. This is turning out great isn't it.

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Sal the 1st — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 21:57:00 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

If we leave without a deal, what is going to happen? My guess is that the EU will be back at the negotiating table the next day, because the UK IS an important marketplace. But the difference will be that when returning to negotiations after 'no deal', the EU will no longer have such an upper hand, so we can hope to negotiate something better.

[/quote]

This is pretty much what I am thinking. It has been made as difficult as possible for the UK to leave - and with good reason, to act as a deterrent to any other member country thinking along the same lines - BUT the member countries will still need to export goods if it isn't to impact on their production/employment/economy. To me a no deal will even the playing field somewhat

RE: Brexit - Johnson V Hunt

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:29:35 GMT

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]A pair of sneering, self-serving maggots.[/quote]

I hear they speak highly of you, too :)

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]Basically I agree with everything that James O'Brien has to say about them[/quote]

I don't like James O'Brien much, and disagree with his fundamental point about Boris ... that everything he has said has been proven wrong (because someone at the EU has said so). Well OF COURSE someone at the EU is going to say that anyone standing for Brexit is wrong about everything!

Does that make sense? I just get frustrated when people argue that is is a fact that the EU will not renegotiate, or will not accept GATT or whatever else. The fact is that nobody knows until the deal is done (or not done).

At this stage, I am moving towards preferring no deal. Why?

I think we have already negotiated so hopelessly, showing all our cards, trying to rule out 'no deal', that getting a good deal now (esp with the time limits), is pretty unlikely.