"Competitive Salary"

RE: "Competitive Salary"

Sal the 1st — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 08:28:00 GMT

just seen a practice local to me advertising on here with an hourly rate, very understated ad but a nice little practice.

RE: "Competitive Salary"

Sal the 1st — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 20:02:54 GMT

A trial day? I have been asked to do a trial week before! and I'm afraid my reply was 'sure my locum rate is xx per day'. A trial day can be useful though, it can be quite revealing as to what goes on. ie asked if I would like a slice of cake cut with the PM knife (recently used and had a quick clean in the washing up bowl) as it was the only sharp knife in the building 'looks lovely but sadly I'm on a diet' (and would be for the duration) or a trainee nurse asking me if I was going to be her new mentor as she needed to qualify and her mentors kept leaving (the alarm bells were ringing so hard they couldn't be ignored) or doing a nurse consult and noting just how many nurses were on the drop down of names even tho there were only 2 actually employed at that time (19-2 = a lot of nurses that had jumped ship in the 3 years the practice had been open)

Will agree with Alison some places are a pleasant surprise and one of them just advertised as a competitive salary - ie 'When did you get your last wage rise? and how much was it? Well I guess I had better top that then or you will be off looking elsewhere. Was a really nice little practice, the sort of place where it was a pleasure to work.

RE: "Competitive Salary"

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 12:46:32 GMT

True, however I find it very useful to get a trial morning or afternoon just to see if I like the place 'in action', meet the team and see how they work together and so on.

I've had experiences whereby at interview so much was promised and a very pretty picture was painted but the reality was far far short of this. Alternatively, it works the other way and you find a lovely place that just didn't sell itself well at first glance.

The real truth usually becomes evident when working with the team. People let their guard down when you work with them and you see/hear things as they really are. Plus what 'kit' the practice has and if they actually use it...

Have declined or accepted jobs on that basis. I'd prefer to be paid but, for me, finding out the gnarly bits or being pleasantly surprised is invaluable info. I look on it as research for my own benefit...

Just another viewpoint!

RE: "Competitive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:23:56 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"] I have gone and worked a day free as part of these work trials, payed money in petrol to then either not get job or salary does not meet my expectations![/quote]

Oh my god. Honestly, I like to think that if I found myself invited to do a trial day at my own expense, I would say: "On yer bike, sunshine". But then I am not desperate for a job (at the moment, at least!).

RE: "Competitive Salary"

VetNurse Anon a/c — Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:14:15 GMT

I wrote a similar post a while back on this issue, after going to an interview at a referral practice which stated competitive salary to then get offered 16k with 17 years experience.

I now ask what the salary is before i interview and have had practices get shirty with me and withdraw my application!

The other thing i find annoying are these trial days as part of the interview process. No other profession have you working for nothing as a working trial in order to have to prove yourselves. I have gone and worked a day free as part of these work trials, payed money in petrol to then either not get job or salary does not meet my expectations! The probation period in the contract is for that so dont understand why this is still common place when recruiting for a veterinary nurse!

RE: "Competitive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 11:21:50 GMT

At last, the latest three jobs have advertised salaries! Well done Vets4Pets/Companion Care (Portsmouth), Paxton Vet Clinics (London), and the University of Glasgow (the clue is in the name).

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:57:34 GMT

[quote user="Thorn"](in part because am intregued to see if I'm just a bit crotchety or if other folk have a similar opinion ) [/quote]

You couldn't be more vindicated if you tried, Thorn

BREAKING NEWS: https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2019/07/22/67-of-vet-nurses-39-very-annoyed-39-by-adverts-which-describe-the-salary-as-39-competitive-39.aspx

Please share the news story as much as possible on facebook and elsewhere. The more people see it, hopefully the more will be persuaded to be up front about salaries. I like to think this story makes the case strongly (who in their right mind wants to set fire to £20 notes!).

Oh, and I hope you enjoy the training video I included at the end. It made me laugh, anyway, but then I am of an age to have seen that movie first time around!

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Thorn — Thu, 18 Jul 2019 06:12:11 GMT

Am pretty interested in seeing what the survey comes back as! (in part because am intregued to see if I'm just a bit crotchety or if other folk have a similar opinion )

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:18:11 GMT

[quote user="Raffles"]I have to just add, my absolute pet hate in ads is 'lots of biscuits on offer' - as much as I like biscuits, up til now they haven't paid for my mortgage[/quote]

Made me laugh, and yes, just about everyone I know says they think that sounds vaguely patronising.

Over 1000 survey responses now. I'll let it run till the end of the week and announce results next week.

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Raffles — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 07:15:03 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Here we go. Raffles - thanks to you for this idea. And you Thorn for starting the discussion.

A really quick survey to ascertain what job seekers, both vets and nurses, think of adverts which don't display the salary.

https://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/5110214/Should-veterinary-salaries-be-advertised

I am going to email this to all members on Monday, so if you see any howlers, please let me know before I make an idiot of myself!

[quote user="Thorn"]Perhaps we need a button to critique adverts?[/quote]

I need to think harder about this but my first thought is perhaps you have answered your own question:

[quote user="Thorn"]On the other hand, perhaps not everyone wants comments about their advert.[/quote]

(and a negative review of the content of the advert might unfairly disadvantage a really good job!)

[quote user="Thorn"]I still reckon wage is a key factor though.[/quote]

Instinctively, I agree with you, though my suspicion is that it will be more of a factor amongst vet nurses than vets. Will be fascinating to see if that is true from the survey ...

[/quote]

You are most welcome ☺️

Great idea and I'd be really keen to see the results. Why shouldn't we be interested to see what the wage bracket would be. We are a hard working, highly trained and well qualified profession. Too many Rvns under selling themselves for crappy wages, ask for what you want and don't settle for anything much less

I'm very happy in my job because I negotiated a good wage with hours that work. I have an excellent boss (independent practice ) and I work hard for him and he treats me well.

I have to just add, my absolute pet hate in ads is 'lots of biscuits on offer' - as much as I like biscuits, up til now they haven't paid for my mortgage

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 19:20:59 GMT

Wow ... we’re at 750 responses to the survey already! Keep them coming. The more responses the more certain we can be of the results ...

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Anne Watkins — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 13:00:45 GMT

Our company advertises jobs usually with 'salary up to £25k (for example) depending on experience and qualification' but that's still quite wishy washy as the real figure could be much much lower. I'm quite lucky to be on a fairly decent VN wage I think, although compared to my previous 2 jobs it couldn't have been much worse haha!

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 12:28:45 GMT

Here we go. Raffles - thanks to you for this idea. And you Thorn for starting the discussion.

A really quick survey to ascertain what job seekers, both vets and nurses, think of adverts which don't display the salary.

https://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/5110214/Should-veterinary-salaries-be-advertised

I am going to email this to all members on Monday, so if you see any howlers, please let me know before I make an idiot of myself!

[quote user="Thorn"]Perhaps we need a button to critique adverts?[/quote]

I need to think harder about this but my first thought is perhaps you have answered your own question:

[quote user="Thorn"]On the other hand, perhaps not everyone wants comments about their advert.[/quote]

(and a negative review of the content of the advert might unfairly disadvantage a really good job!)

[quote user="Thorn"]I still reckon wage is a key factor though.[/quote]

Instinctively, I agree with you, though my suspicion is that it will be more of a factor amongst vet nurses than vets. Will be fascinating to see if that is true from the survey ...

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Thorn — Sat, 13 Jul 2019 20:30:07 GMT

[quote user="Denise Cooke"]This is one of the great thing on this site how's Arlo trying to change it [/quote]

Agree

Perhaps we need a button to critique adverts? Like "I loved your detailed description of your practice and liked how you were very clear about CPD allowance but there was no wage indication and this put me off applying"

That might be helpful for recruiters too? Because, often (not always) when you are recruiting - especially if it's to fill a QVN role--you are already short staffed and run ragged and don't always have time to spare. Maybe having the option for other people to say where you are going right / wrong (or even just to say that they loved the ad and in different personal circumstances would be applying) could be helpful?

On the other hand, perhaps not everyone wants comments about their advert.

I still reckon wage is a key factor though. If you can't honestly picture in your head the type of person you are looking for also being wholly reliant on parents/partner/family etc for their home and food, maybe consider sticking some sort of wage on there, lest you select against every potential applicant with any sort of rent, mortgage or pitch site fee to pay

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Denise Cooke — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:35:38 GMT

This is one of the great thing on this site how's Arlo trying to change it

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:56:26 GMT

[quote user="Raffles"]Gosh is this a real reason?[/quote]

I'm not saying it is, just hypothesising.

[quote user="Raffles"]Surely if you felt things had changed you would bring all of your employees up to the same appropriate salary level across the board?[/quote]

What if your profitability was such that doing so would put you out of business?

[quote user="Raffles"]With regards to adverts, I too would only consider ones with an idea of wage bracket.[/quote]

You've given me idea, thanks Raffles.

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Raffles — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:45:01 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] In some cases, it may be that the practice is paying existing employees less, but market conditions have changed and they recognise that they might have to pay someone new a bit more. They don't want to make that public or risk annoying the existing employee.[/quote]

Gosh is this a real reason? If I was that existing employee and found out a new employee of the same level was being paid more, well I would go mad! Surely if you felt things had changed you would bring all of your employees up to the same appropriate salary level across the board?

With regards to adverts, I too would only consider ones with an idea of wage bracket. If I'm looking for a job, I have a salary expectation, and feel I would be wasting both mine and the employer's time if I went through the route of interview etc if I then came to a non negotiable unacceptable pay. I mean, your first question on initial contact can't really be "how much will I be paid?' can it! Never a good first imrpession I suppose

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:52:03 GMT

[quote user="apache"]I've been thinking about this and remain in the camp that this is a case of individual variability based on what the individual can bring to the team. Rather than say I'll pay somewhere between £4 and £14/hour depending whether you are a new apprentice or a head nurse with management responsibility I wonder if there is a solution to standardise things?

I would be happy to state a starting salary for a newly qualified nurse either on an hourly rate basis or on a salary based on a number of hours per week. Saying "starting salary for a RVN is £20,000" I suppose is helpful.[/quote]

I've been mulling over that, trying to think exactly what you mean and how it could apply to VetNurse Jobs.

Seems to me that your first para is a bit contradictory. You say you remain in the camp that this is about individual variability based on what the individual can bring to the team. But then you argue for standardising, which makes it harder to accommodate individual variability, surely?!

Then I am thinking that "Starting salary for RVN [at our practice] is £20,000" is really no different from the current 'Minimum Offer' we suggest you advertise on VetNurse (which is described as the starting point for negotiations; if someone can bring more to the team, you might offer more).

I think it comes back to greater efforts on my part to encourage advertisers to advertise a salary.

RE: "Competetive Salary"

apache — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 21:23:58 GMT

I've been thinking about this and remain in the camp that this is a case of individual variability based on what the individual can bring to the team. Rather than say I'll pay somewhere between £4 and £14/hour depending whether you are a new apprentice or a head nurse with management responsibility I wonder if there is a solution to standardise things?

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 10:41:52 GMT

[quote user="Thorn"]However, so so many adverts either say nothing about the salary or say something along the lines of "Competetive wage" or just don't mention money at all. It's often the same ads who have taken the time to wax lyrical about all the tech their practice has... I like gadgets as much as the next person but isn't actual pay more of a deal breaker than what the practice has?[/quote]

Totally, completely and utterly agree with you.

Trying to see it from the other side, though:

1. In every case it is a negotiation. Employers don't want to pay more than they have to, particularly small businesses, so they probably don't want to start the negotiation by laying their cards on the table.

2. In some cases, it may be that the practice is paying existing employees less, but market conditions have changed and they recognise that they might have to pay someone new a bit more. They don't want to make that public or risk annoying the existing employee.

So ...

On VetNurse Jobs, we introduced a feature which aims to strike a balance. It allows the practice to give an indication without overly committing to a precise number. The choices are:

a) A Minimum offer, described as the starting point for a discussion. Advertiser may offer more, or they may not. This is just the opener.

b) A range, which obviously indicates that it depends on experience etc.

I think these options give the flexibility for advertisers to give you something to go on without revealing too many of their cards. And yet STILL, despite my efforts, very few actually use the feature.

Two ideas.

When we added the salary feature, I found some research which showed that adverts that display a salary perform better than those which don't. If I could dig that out and find a percentage, then I could rephrase that another way to advertisers. Lets say ads with salaries perform 25% better. Then I could say: "Would you like to waste £25? Then don't include a salary. Research shows you will get a 25% worse response if you don't include salary details".

I think time to go one step further with the job advertising section and add a pop up window that opens if someone tries to submit an advert without salary details. The message would say ...

You have not included salary details on this advert.

If they pressed submit again, without the salary details ...

Are you stark raving mad?

Did you know that research has found that adverts which display a salary are more effective than those which don't.

So if you don't publish details of the salary on offer, you are throwing money out of the window.

(Or something like that!)

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Thorn — Fri, 05 Jul 2019 09:40:21 GMT

I get why the folk paying the wages don't want to commit to a number in some respects (have had experiences working from that side of the coin before) as you feel like you don't want to rule out either newbies or seniors (and, ultimately, you don't want to end up paying more than you have to). I found when it was me searching for folk to recruit, though, that it was really tricky to get any applicants at all, particularly for elusive RVNs, and you then had to hope that those few who applied would be at least ok for the team.

From a job seeker side, unless a job is the most amazing job ever, I find myself really reluctant to go for those roles without at least a number range attached, especially in cases where relocation would be involved. Perhaps it would be different if VN jobs were rare but so many practices seem to be short on nurses. It feels a bit like perhaps practices should be showing some healthy competition in regards to the wages and lifestyle they offer to have high interest in roles, to attract in the best of the best and keep them forever...I'm dreadfully biased though :D

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Meow1950 — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 07:20:35 GMT

I totally agree. I applied for a job with “competitive salary” and when I got the job, I can assure you it was definitely not what I would consider competitive. I would never pick a job on salary alone but I have a mortgage to pay so of course it will factor into things, so surely it’s better for all to just be upfront

RE: "Competetive Salary"

apache — Wed, 03 Jul 2019 21:57:27 GMT

It depends so much on the individual that any range quoted would be so broad to be meaningless. 'Average' nurse is about £20K, but I'll pay more if you have more to offer. For a vet, depending on experience and package I'll pay somewhere between £25K and £50K. The nervous new grad is going to be disappointed to be on the bottom end. Salary is something to negotiate once you have been offered the job and can show what you can bring.

RE: "Competetive Salary"

Denise Cooke — Wed, 03 Jul 2019 21:28:24 GMT

I agree I like to see what other RVN get in the area to make sure my wage is fair. As I move practice and have a £6000 paid rise per year. This was less stressful them my last job which I was in for 10 years. It's same time pay to move vets but for me the most important thing is staff turn away. If a practice managed to keep their staff for years and able to replaced staff straight away. It's normally show they a good practice work for and with the money side. I feel their should be honest as shops and other job show on the advert how's much they will be paid. Why isn't it the same for RVN.