Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Denise Cooke — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 10:22:07 GMT

This make me feel sad as a caring practice we not very good at looking after our own staff. The stress for living on this sort of money trying to train but also what happened like me your mum and dad cannot support you. Not the fact their won't but the fact they thereself on a low wage.

I remember my training I live with my ex husband at the time and was on a little wage. Even through the practice did payed for my course I was just over mim wages. Having to do a 90 miles round trip on my college day not only paying for petrol, but toll fee and college book. I basically had to live on so little money I couldn't go out or on holiday.

I feel veterinary clinic want RVN their should be willing to paid a fair wage and for the training. As their want a RVN too and this would help alot of people from poorer background to be able have a chance to improve their life and skills. I know RVN don't get paid great but better them people who work in care homes, shop, factory etc.

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Denise Cooke — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 08:31:25 GMT

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Meow1950 — Thu, 04 Jul 2019 07:31:14 GMT

Answer = Yes, student veterinary nurses are definitely exploited.

Where I am from, working for free with a faint promise of being taken on to do your vet nurse training and a paid job is common place, and sadly, almost expected. I did this myself for a year, as have many others I know, sometimes for longer.

I was younger at the time and able to do this but if I wanted to go into vet nursing now I’m older it would have been a definite no as I have too much responsibility now.

However, what you describe about no wage once beginning training, is not something I see often. I’m pretty sure the RCVS guidelines state that you must be in paid employment to study the veterinary nursing course. What you describe, in my opinion is definitely exploitation.

The long, bumpy road to becoming an RVN definitely puts strain on your mental health. I feel especially sorry for the people you mention

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Sal the 1st — Wed, 03 Jul 2019 19:08:56 GMT

[quote user="Tincan007"]

When i had a similar issue i spoke to the college i am registered at (started at college 1 day per week in January ‘19) and they backed me 100%. Any issues with pay or contract the college sorted out so I didn’t need to make myself public enemy no 1 whilst at work. If they had not done this the practice would of had their TP title removed etc so they backed down. Hope this helps but yes practices will try this or ask for money from student before putting them on the course. Thats what mine did and in my college induction we were told 10 times not to had over any money under any circumstance so from that i gathered it was a common occurrence

[/quote]

Bad move by any college threatening removal of TP status I would have thought (but maybe that is just me?). Practices asking for a deposit which is returnable to the student on completion of the course is actually quite common. It was around when I first started in practice (early 80's), designed so that the student had some financial interest in studying, passing and finishing the course

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Tincan007 — Wed, 03 Jul 2019 14:46:24 GMT

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 25 Jun 2019 16:20:53 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]

wonder if anybody would be interested in researching the following - of the people who register to train as veterinary nurses every year what percentage of those actually make it to qualify? what are their reasons for not continuing? Is there anything that could be done to help?

Of the nurses who drop off the register every year what are the reasons? other than not wanting to pay retention fee. Those that are retiring - discount those for now, those that are recently qualified and decided they have fallen out of love with nursing what percentage are degree qualifiers and what percentage are apprenticeship style? ie are there a greater number of degree nurses that are dissatisfied or is it the other way round. How many newly qualified nurses (from both types) are still around and working in practice (not academia) 5 yrs later?

and lastly what percentage of the whole nursing pool is made up of old fogies like myself and what has kept us going?

Is this something that can be worked on[/quote]

Hmmm, strokes chin, yess, erm, interesting idea.

Two thoughts about this thread ...

1. Yes, let's put together a survey.

2. I am not sure this thread really tells us much about prevalence of nurses being exploited. It obviously happens, but not sure to what degree. It's a question that could be asked as part of the survey, and if a significant issue, I could hire a lawyer to put together some bullet points to clarify the law and then email it to everyone.

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 24 Jun 2019 22:33:14 GMT

if all the practices that didn't train nurses had to pay a surcharge that went to support the practices that did (and the trainees) I reckon it could make nurse training more attractive to the practices -and if we went back to basics with a basic qualification and said to those qualifying - right you do a minimum of a year as a qualified in practice before you can step up and start studying for the degree I think we could solve some of the shortages too.

Lets be real honest folks you don't need a degree to do this job - but then I wouldn't want to stop anybody who thought they did, all I would ask is that they spend some time actually doing the job they qualified in before flitting off to do something else.

[quote user="Robyn "]

As for student retention - we had a 60% dropout rate from a class of 38.

[/quote]

Free tuition often results in high drop out - I know this from teaching night classes, no financial investment often = poor student investment in time and interest. Not by any means saying this is always the case but its a lot easier to drop off a course that has cost you nothing. The only classes I have ever taught where people reliably turned up for every class were the ones where people had invested money in them or attendance paid dividends ie classes in prison where attendance looked good when applying for parole. But thankyou for providing some figures on retention

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Robyn — Mon, 24 Jun 2019 15:50:29 GMT

[quote user="apache"]

The worst system is the degree - why pay £9000 per year plus living to be the same as a diploma nurse? At least you earn something during training.

[/quote]

Not in scotland we ain't! Tuition is paid by the government and we just have to pay living costs. I was incredibly lucky and I got a great student and Bank of Dad loan - you're working full time for free during all your holidays and good luck trying to find a part-time job for just 3-6 months, so it's still good luck to you, but very slightly better! It is also a slightly better route if you're taking an academic route through the profession and you're a weirdo like me that enjoys research.

As for student retention - we had a 60% dropout rate from a class of 38. The vast majority of that was unfair treatment during placements driving them out of the profession, or being unable to afford to live. It would not surprise me in the slightest if that's still the case.

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

molladog — Mon, 24 Jun 2019 13:00:41 GMT

Totally agree Sal,

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 24 Jun 2019 09:11:52 GMT

make the training easier to deliver would be a start - just what was wrong with the green book? The same system with a bit of tweaking could quite easily work again- if you knew your stuff you passed, if you didn't you failed simple as. day release of 1 day per week - whole qualification completed in 2 years and trainee gets paid along the way. Then those that want to top up to degree make that available to them (already is). Take everything right back to basics. The problem with training now is that every time it has been reviewed it has been made more expensive, more complicated, more cumbersome and more time hungry

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

apache — Mon, 24 Jun 2019 00:27:02 GMT

We are left with a very odd situation where pretty much everyone would agree we have a shortage of veterinary nurses and yet there is a heap of potential students unable to find a place in a training practice. I personally know of a few that have drifted off in other directions through frustration. This is where the degree route came from, and I suspect these unpaid placements organised by the VN training colleges.

To train as a vet you do 5 years full time at college with all the seeing practice making it hard to get a part time job. You end up significantly in debt. If we accept that the time in practice is part of your training then I can see an argument for it not being paid work. You can be 18 years old and a fully qualified RVN, earning maybe £5000 less than the new grad vet who's 23 and owes ~£75,000 in student debt. I accept the vet pay will go up much faster, while the nurse pay stagnates, but it's not a bad position. It's a bonus if you get paid £3.90/hour.

That said, I expect much more actual 'work' out of a student nurse than a vet student, so I expect to pay them. Our current nurse was paid well above apprenticeship rates as we were training her up to keep her. Our plan is to offer a fixed 2 year training contract at apprentice rates, to give us flexibility. We don't have work for two full time RVNs. It maintains our VNTC status and teaching keeps us all on our toes, including our nurse.

I wonder if the solution can initially come from RCVS PSS? Maybe a rule that for every 2 RVNs you had at least 1 student as a degree placement or apprenticeship (paid)? Make being a training centre a requirement to be practice standard assured? Is that a realistic prospect? Wrong ratio? Bad idea?

I know for our PSS inspection we had to show copies of contracts, RCVS could check that the students were being treated legally under employment rules? Would it be so bad to include a copy of the employment contract (including rates of pay) in the student nurse registration?

My only worry would be if you outlaw these FOC placements then what happens to the poor students relying on them for their practical experience as part of their courses? It would have to be phased out over a period of time.

Interested in any other realistic solutions to the problem.

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 23 Jun 2019 19:26:59 GMT

and lastly what percentage of the whole nursing pool is made up of old fogies like myself and what has kept us going?

Is this something that can be worked on

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 23:48:26 GMT

[quote user="r-more"]

[quote user="apache"]We are taking on our second student and the college have offered to find a volentary placement if she can't find a job to do the apprenticeship.[/quote]

Under minimum wage legislation, volunteering is only permitted in charities, voluntary organisations and statutory body. If someone is working (even on a “voluntary” basis), they are entitled to minimum wage.

[/quote]

Apache has hit the nail on the head here - the colleges in some cases are telling the practices (and students) that they will find them voluntary places - we have been told the same. Colleges are as desperate to find placements as the students are - and there just aren't that many to go around because it is harder than ever to a) sort though everything to become a TP and b) to have a spare person or time to mentor a student and that isn't going to get a whole lot better any time soon as many leave the job before or just after they qualify.

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 23:42:04 GMT

at least you are one that is treating your apprentice fairly - lots are not faring that well. I have heard of places that don't pay them for time at college among other things. I agree with you totally that it can be a huge investment in time and money to participate in training - we don't where I am currently. It wouldn't even be possible I am the only nurse. We have had various colleges approach us telling us oh it wont cost you anything we will set it all up for you - sounds great but whilst I'm at work I also need to be a nurse as well. A few years back I had to drag 2 nursing assistants through the ANA, they started out keen for about the first month and after that it was murder. I trained nurses for years in practice.

The degree to me was the worst thought out single thing that could happen to veterinary nursing - I said it at the time and nothing I have seen since has changed my mind. At least being employed by a practice as a trainee gave a wage, people qualified faster, they could be more use to the practice sooner - which then gave them a chance at a better wage earlier and the choice to carry on in practice and build on their qualification or go back to college for more study without a huge debt hanging over them.

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

r-more — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 23:31:57 GMT

[quote user="apache"]We are taking on our second student and the college have offered to find a volentary placement if she can't find a job to do the apprenticeship.[/quote]

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

apache — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 21:26:11 GMT

I'll start by saying working for nothing is exploitation and not ok.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]At least student vets can get a job to do alongside their study to bring in a bit of brass[/quote]

In the first 2 years of the course we have to do 13 weeks pre-clinical EMS and in the last 3 years 26 weeks in the last 3 years. That's basically all the holiday minus a few weeks. Most people don't have times for jobs on the vet course. I did some sporadic farm work.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]apprenticeship nurses (though they now have a better deal than the £2.10 an hour they were being paid at one time - its a fantastic £3.90 an hour) [/quote]

I actually think the £3.90/hour is pretty fair. They get all course fees paid. They get paid for the day/days they are at college. They get a minimum of 3 hours a week (on the days they are there) on training/NPL/OSCE practice etc. As a practice we will also pay for things like OSCE prep days. We've a decent library of relevant books. There is a huge investment in time and money training a nurse. Earning just under £4 an hour probably works out at twice that rate for the hours worked versus the hours we pay.

We are taking on our second student and the college have offered to find a volentary placement if she can't find a job to do the apprenticeship. The worst system is the degree - why pay £9000 per year plus living to be the same as a diploma nurse? At least you earn something during training.

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 20:19:54 GMT

I was thinking more of letting the wider public know - a little pressure from clients would do no harm

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

r-more — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 16:18:10 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Get a Watchdog crew in there...[/quote]

There’s no need for Watchdog, this can be “whistle blown” to HMRC. If the employer is a corporate practice, they are probably a large employer and HMRC would relish getting their teeth into them!

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

Sal the 1st — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:20:31 GMT

The 6mth minimum wage before being put forward for a training place has been going on for more years than I can remember (I started this way about 82/83 - common in a lot of places not just corporate). The degree nurse trainees working for nothing - again quite common as many places will not call them employees although if they are on a duty rota they can very easily argue that - especially where trainee nurses are working unsupervised shifts and the practices on their own websites refer to them as nursing staff. just a quick glance on here and just this one thread shows it has been the case for years and has affected quite a few https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/nonclinical/f/5/t/24928.aspx?pi3944=1#151035

Yes I do feel that they are being exploited and have said this for a long time - same as apprenticeship nurses (though they now have a better deal than the £2.10 an hour they were being paid at one time - its a fantastic £3.90 an hour) so now tell me the degree route was such a fantastic idea! At least student vets can get a job to do alongside their study to bring in a bit of brass - these poor buggers are working full time for nothing and then still having to foot the bill for their studies. Shortage of nurses? now let me think , how could that possibly happen?

Get a Watchdog crew in there - but wait somebody may have done this already (Panorama it shouldn't happen at a vets) https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2010/07/24/89925.aspx - don't know if they pay degree students or even if they have them but they certainly make use of them

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

VetNurse Anon a/c — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 21:11:44 GMT

YES! unfortunately this is commonly wide spread and student nurses and sometimes qualified nurses are exploited.

I had few different practices as a student that unfortunately was all the same.

I started my training in my late 20s, qualified at 30 so I had my own home, Bill's, car etc.

I once worked at one practice that pulled me aside because i had a part time job so i could make ends meet and they told me i had to leave it because they wanted me to do 12 hr shifts, work till 10pm and cover nights. I told them I would struggle even though I was already working the correct hours I have to as an SVN so not obliged to work over 35hr unpaid! And they told me that if I dont they will get another student who can as there is more where i come from!

I worked at another one unpaid again long un-sociable hours who didn't want anything to do with my NPL and gave me a list of tasks all day every day to complete such as fold body bags, clean freezer, litter pick, put lids on top of tablet bottles etc! Now I know being a student you muck in and work as a team and it's not all about completing my NPL but that just takes the piss when am not even paid and slave labour!

I worked at another practice rotad in to work one night shift a week which was say it was to work the Tuesday night you would start at 1pm till 9pm than cover night at the practice 9pm till 7am and then work 7am to 3pm on the weds every week. They was very busy with a lot of critical inpatients plus as a student leaving a student unsupervised! REALLY!!! At that practice you had to cover 1 in 4 weekend nights which consisted off working fri 1pm through to mon 3pm so day shifts sat,sun,mon then the nights! Funnily enough they had a very high staff turnover. None of the vets had to do this, just the unpaid students!

I have seen it with qualified nurses as well. Every job I've applied for I've had to do anything from 1 day upto a week unpaid work as part of recruitment! REALLY! They call it trials but isn't that what the probation period is? No other profession does it! It takes the piss. Last year a applied for a night role and got asked to trial 4 nights unpaid, piss take!

I am a little older now so wont do it and after all that as a student but I do feel as the vet nurse industry is predominantly female and young and most of us determined to work with animals and how hard it is to even get a placement and start training then they are exploited for them reasons, things I've seen they get away with a lot tbh!

And yes to the OP that practices do start you off as a VCA for 6-12month etc, it's very common.

I was in serious debt at the end of my course but it took me 9 years to get a position so you put up with a lot!

Now after all that I have only been qualified 4 years and left the profession unfortunately! I am at university studying medical sciences believe it or not as a previous RVN studying medicine. I applied to study vet science and even though I have A levels and degree and worked as a veterinary nurse 8 years they told me to resit my GCSEs even though medical school was happy with my qualifications and transferable skills so goes to show what they think of nurses, totally undervalued! I mean going from level 6 to go back and do level 2, SERIOUSLY!

It's a shame but never regret my decision to leave! All my friends from uni have left as well such a shame!

I was very scared to change profession as had a lot of confidence knocked out me but apparently this type of behaviour doesn't happen elsewhere esp in the NHS and esp once a doctor!

RE: Are trainee vet nurses being exploited?

r-more — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 20:24:22 GMT

It’s not just unacceptable, it’s illegal - if they are working for the practice, minimum wage legislation comes into play. The employer may argue various points to say that the student VN is not an employee (they may even have a “contract” that says as much), but, if the nature of their relationship to the practice and their work within the practice is that of an employee, then an employee they are - you know what they say: if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck! I doubt very much that the point of them being in training would stand up to challenge - we aren’t talking about a hospital attached to a university/college, this is a private business. Also, “volunteering” doesn’t exempt minimum wage unless the organisation has charitable status.

I’ve been in a similar situation, a complaint lodged with HMRC got the me the money I was owed. The students in question can assert their right to minimum wage, this may of course lead to them being ”let go” (but they will still be owed back pay for the work they have done). If they are sacked for asserting their rights, they may also have a claim for unfair dismissal. Keep in mind, they would also be entitled to paid holiday.

Given that this is a large corporate, I think a complaint to HMRC regarding minimum wage is in order. You have to keep in mind that students could loose places, however, if the practice needs the staff they will have to pay for them.

Might I suggest a posting on “UK Buisness Forums” on the minimum wage legalities of this? Contributors there will be able to advise of the employment law aspects.