SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 13:22:40 GMT

Yes, sticking needles in veins / giving IM and IV meds would be considered as Sch.3.

You're not risking your registration if you are not the one asking the person to do it.

Perhaps it would be wise to keep a diary of what you see, noting dates, times and tasks.

I am in complete agreement that only RVNs should have the privilege to call themselves veterinary nurses, but unfortunately there are those that disagree and the title has no legal protection, BUT both the VN and VS Code of Conduct state that we cannot refer to others as a veterinary nurse unless they are qualified. It's a start.

Yes there is a point in having RVNs even if we are doing similar tasks - because as RVNs, we have the training and qualification to be able to do these tasks to a higher standard, and with more underpinning knowledge.

The money aspect wouldn't bother me personally, although unlike others on here, I have never worked anywhere where ANA's / lay staff have been given anywhere near as much responsibility as RVNs, and I just can't imagine these places that allow them to monitor GAs etc. I was monitoring a GA at 2am this morning for an anaemic, hypoproteinaemic dog with VPCs and VFIB and a whopping pericardial effusion whilst the duty vet performed pericardiocentesis. I cannot fathom how there are people that think an untrained person should be allowed to do that, but there you go.

I know it sucks, but as I said before, you must let your work speak for itself.

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

VetNurse Anon a/c — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 12:44:39 GMT

Hiya

I am the OP

The other Anon is another point of view from a different poster.

The tasks are what falls under minor medical and surgical treatments and they have given IV meds which I thought was S3. They are allowed to take bloods as well which is also S3

I agree with some of the comments but at the same time I don't want to risk my registration as took long enough to get it!

And if we want to talk about progression of our ANAs well then train as a VN, as far as I am concerned the only ones with the right to call themselves veterinary nurses or carry out acts of medical/surgery under veterinary direction are Registered Nurses!!!

There is no point having RVNs if we are all doing the same job. I would expect a qualified Registered Nurse to earn more than ANA as well due to different level of responsibility and qualifications taken.

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 06:35:21 GMT

Avast Ye! Bring a spring upon 'er!

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 05:51:11 GMT

Ra Ra Ra! Me pom poms are shakin' to your tune Jimbomcgrimbo!! Well said

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Tue, 22 Jan 2019 00:40:49 GMT

Anon,

In principle I agree with the points that I think you are trying to make (see the abundance of earlier threads / heated discussions on the same topic) - but I also agree with Sal here.

Moaning about the current situation on here, or to the RCVS or whoever else isn't going to help your/our cause. Again, can you give specific examples of what the unqualified staff are being asked to do? I strongly suspect that much of it, if any falls under Sch.3, but please do state the tasks and if I'm wrong I'll happily admit it!

The way to further our cause is not to complain, but to put forward supporting arguments and to work extremely hard, extremely diligently, and above all, look for EVERY opportunity to show that the underpinning knowledge that our training / CPD has given us makes us a cut above. Whether that's in writing clinical notes on the computer, hosp. sheet or monitoring form, discussing cases with the vets, reporting on something you have examined in the lab, cleaning, talking to clients - everything. It's the only way - because the current situation I'm afraid isn't going to change any time soon.

And even if not for the recognition of our role as RVNs - we should be working this way for its own sake - to me, that's why we trained and what makes us RVNs.

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

apache — Mon, 21 Jan 2019 19:31:46 GMT

Anon - sad we couldn't have this discussion with your real username and not hiding behind anon, but hey ho, I'm under a username.

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]Apache - then what would be the point in practices employing RVNs if the ANAs can do extra tasks?????[/quote]

A veterinary nurse is far far more than someone who can stick needles in veins. Farmers do this every day. DEFRA has lay blood samplers for cattle and sheep. As I said in the human sphere you can train simply to take blood and place IV cannulae. I'm not suggesting anything more than a couple of pretty simple manual tasks. Absolutely not things like minor surgery etc.

I think that in most fields upskilling happens, and if we are talking about the VN doing more then why the hell not look at what a ACA can do, safely and to facilitate the running of the practice. It's pretty selfish suggesting we should look at VNs doing more but not allow others to progress.

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]Hardly makes good business sense to employ RVNs who command a higher salary when you can employ an ANA for less.[/quote]

Simple question - are there more useful nursing tasks that you can do that stretch you mentally and allow you to be a better nurse if others can take the pressure off simple physical tasks like bloods an cannulae? I strongly suspect the answer is a resounding yes.

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]I think that as you are a VS you can't possibly see things from the POV of an RVN! [/quote]

Maybe, maybe not. I've spent a good chunk of today with our RVN. I took her out to assist with and monitor 4 equine field anaesthetics for mini Shetland castrates. She also gave their cat it's 2nd vaccine. When we got back she did an aural haematoma operation on a dog, while I monitored the anaesthetic. Her abilities to put things in veins or draw blood had nothing to do with her usefulness today. I'm sure she'd pick today's activities over a day of blood samples.

And you think I don't understand?

[ultimately we put the effort and money in her training so she can do the roles I want in the practice, so I feel the vet view of what we want from VNs is very valid]

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

Sal the 1st — Mon, 21 Jan 2019 02:52:43 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

Apache - then what would be the point in practices employing RVNs if the ANAs can do extra tasks????? Hardly makes good business sense to employ RVNs who command a higher salary when you can employ an ANA for less.

I think that as you are a VS you can't possibly see things from the POV of an RVN!

We've trained hard at college for years and are struggling to get the recognition we deserve so how on earth will it help us fight our corner when others in the profession are suggesting allowing lesser qualified staff to be trained to do what we can!

Ridiculous.

[/quote]

it isn't that ridiculous at all if you can't recruit qualified nurses, and just for the record our ANAs are on the same rate as myself- it has nothing to do with ANAs being cheaper to employ in our case. Recognition will certainly come your way (but locum work may become a bit thin) if you are constantly reporting back to the RCVS at every touch and turn for what you see as a 'crime' against nurses, better to voice your concerns with the practice directly.

I suspect from your post that either you may not have been qualified too long or maybe haven't had the opportunity to have worked in too many different places. Some areas of the country have loads of qualified nurses and some do not.

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

VetNurse Anon a/c — Sun, 20 Jan 2019 23:24:28 GMT

I think that as you are a VS you can't possibly see things from the POV of an RVN!

Ridiculous.

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

2005nurse — Sun, 20 Jan 2019 19:39:43 GMT

Interesting point, and thanks for the info.

Just a slightly off topic observation....the Registered Veterinary Nurse being delegated to must be employed by the VS?

Where do locums stand then, if not technically ‘employed’?

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

apache — Sun, 20 Jan 2019 16:12:16 GMT

[quote user="jimbomcgrimbo"]What sort of things are they doing, out of interest..? You sure whatever it is falls under Sch.3?[/quote]

That's my thinking too.

Some things are clear but others a little bit less so - personally I'm happy lay staff changing a drip bag or flushing a cannula, but I wouldn't let them do an IV injection off the needle. I wouldn't let them blood sample or place a cannula. I see no sense in them being able to do s/c injections but not IM, I've trained owners to do them before for various reasons. personally I'm happy lay staff giving atipamezole IM in my presence to reverse a sedated animal, but wouldn't get them to give it that way to sedate.

Surgery is clear, but there is nothing in the VSA that says they cannot take blood or place IV cannulae. Honestly if we are looking at furthering what VNs can do in practice then maybe we need to do the same for the ACAs. How about a small formal qualification that allowed them to take blood or place an IV cannula? That would be useful in practice and is how it works in human medicine. It would also help out the practices struggling to recruit enough VNs.......

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Sat, 19 Jan 2019 20:49:32 GMT

What sort of things are they doing, out of interest..? You sure whatever it is falls under Sch.3?

RE: SCHEDULE 3 INTERPRETATION

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Sat, 19 Jan 2019 20:47:49 GMT

It is clear - Schedule 3 is delegation to veterinary nurses, clue's in the title! Maybe ask them to look for themselves, it's pretty unambiguous.

Schedule 3 exemption

18.3 The Veterinary Surgeons Act 1966 (Schedule 3 Amendment) Order 2002 provides that veterinary surgeons may direct registered or student veterinary nurses who they employ, to carry out limited veterinary surgery.

18.4 Under this Schedule 3 exemption, the privilege of giving any medical treatment or carrying out minor surgery, not involving entry into a body cavity, is given to:

Registered veterinary nurses under the direction of their veterinary surgeon employer to animals under their employer's care. The directing veterinary surgeon must be satisfied that the veterinary nurse is qualified to carry out the medical treatment or minor surgery (see paragraph 18.5).
Student veterinary nurses under the direction of their veterinary surgeon employer to animals under their employer's care. In addition, medical treatment or minor surgery must be supervised by a veterinary surgeon or registered veterinary nurse and, in the case of minor surgery, the supervision must be direct, continuous and personal. The medical treatment or minor surgery must be carried out in the course of the student veterinary nurse's training (see paragraph 18.5).

18.5 The RCVS has interpreted these as follows:

'direction' means that the veterinary surgeon instructs the veterinary nurse or student veterinary nurse as to the tasks to be performed, but is not necessarily present.
'supervision' means that the veterinary surgeon is present on the premises and able to respond to a request for assistance if needed.
'direct, continuous and personal supervision' means that the veterinary surgeon or veterinary nurse is present and giving the student veterinary nurse his/her undivided personal attention.

18.6 A veterinary nurse or student veterinary nurse is not entitled independently to undertake either medical treatment or minor surgery.

18.7 In considering whether to direct a veterinary nurse or student veterinary nurse to carry out 'Schedule 3 procedures’, a veterinary surgeon must consider how difficult the procedure is in the light of any associated risks, whether the nurse is qualified to treat the species concerned, understands the associated risks and has the necessary experience and good sense to react appropriately if any problem should arise. The veterinary surgeon must also be sure that he/she will be available to answer any call for assistance, and finally, should be satisfied that the nurse feels capable of carrying out the procedure competently and successfully.

18.8 Veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses when supervising veterinary nurses undertaking Schedule 3 procedures, should confirm that their names are currently on the Register of Veterinary Nurses maintained by the RCVS and have not been removed from the Register by direction of the VN Disciplinary Committee.