Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Sal the 1st — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 11:40:44 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

..... but there are plenty of other things that I can teach her given that being a nurse isn't just about giving meds and ticking boxes.

[/quote]

yes that was pretty much what I was meaning

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

I have been asked to do this by my PM

[/quote]

I suspected this might be the case. Do you work in corporate by any chance? I remember being told at one place that it was perfectly fine for me to do health checks and annual boosters on animals less than 7 years old - no need for a vet to see them, and I knew that this wasn't right.

Yes you have to watch your own back but at the same time there is plenty that you could teach your auxilliary that they can do without causing any problems.

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

I must admit I take a little offence at the comment about being taught by someone who's not got any teaching qualifications - I've been qualified a great many years and have tonnes of nursing experience and have many additional certificates so feel very confident in my ability to teach and impart my knowledge! I bet 99% of RVNs won't have been taught in practice by people with teaching qualifications anyway!

[/quote]

Same here. I don't have teaching quals not for teaching nurses at any rate but have certainly taught a lot of nurses (and some vets) in my 34yrs in this job

The thing I find most interesting about this thread (and quite a few others along the same vein) , and this isn't aimed at the OP at all is that many times people who have the response of not qualified as a nurse so shouldn't be doing x y or z are the very same people who aren't qualified as vets but are fighting to be able to perform some of the tasks that a VS will see as their preserve - its all a bit odd really

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Jean Douglas — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 10:23:20 GMT

:) Sorry, didn't mean it personally :) I was having a bit of a rant in general. RVNs are extremely skilled & knowledgeable, with a huge amount of underpinning knowledge. The degree / diploma tutors at collage will have some teaching quals too

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

jojofruits — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 10:13:25 GMT

my assumption given this is a vet nurse forum , and I was referring to the original poster . I think they are justified in being concerned about this

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 03:26:33 GMT

Sounds like a sensible decision to me :)

As ever, and aside from the issue of accountability, to me it boils down to what the owners would wish for (and are paying for). I am certain that if questioned, most owners would assume that the people taking care of their animals in veterinary practice are qualified to do so and would be horrified to find out if that were not the case (same as the issue surrounding monitoring general anaesthetics).

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

VetNurse Anon a/c — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 03:11:20 GMT

I was the original poster. I have been asked to do this by my PM who is neither an RVN or VS and has no animal related qualifications.

Schedule 3 tasks will be the majority of the daily tasks given that said person and I will be working on the wards during the shifts.

I have read the guide to professional conduct and it quite clearly states that non-qualified staff should not be doing tasks such as im or iv injections or placing an iv or urinary catheter. I think it's section 19 where it states that. Having spoken to a number of vets about it the opinion is divided as some are happy for the person to do everything whereas others are horrified about it.

I personally don't want to risk my registration so have decided to not let said person do any of the above tasks whilst under my supervision and if other staff let her then that's their decision.

I think it was Sal that said schedule3 tasks are such a small part of being an RVN which I do and don't agree with but there are plenty of other things that I can teach her given that being a nurse isn't just about giving meds and ticking boxes.

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

apache — Sat, 12 Jan 2019 01:24:33 GMT

[quote user="Jean Douglas"]Imagine your mum, sister, daughter, husband, son, granddad, (or you) was in hospital & somebody was giving them an injection, tablet, treatment, would it be ok for those care staff to have no qualifications , just informal on-the-job training by an trainer who has no teaching qualifications. [/quote]

They are called healthcare assistants. The one at our local GP surgery gave me my flu jab recently, into my muscle. If you relative is in hospital chances are they will do the medicating and take most of the observations.

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Sal the 1st — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 22:23:04 GMT

good for you - but we don't all work in the same environments, for me I very much doubt it would amount to even 10%, so for me if I was to train somebody up to do my job they would be able to do 90% of it and with their additional assistance that would then leave me with a little breathing room to do the bits they can't do.

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 22:12:09 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]so what percentage of your working day is taken up by schedule 3 procedures?[/quote]

- rather alot of it on a ward shift!

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 22:09:17 GMT

Exactly why a prescriptive list of Schedule 3 procedures is sorely needed.

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Sal the 1st — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 22:08:38 GMT

[quote user="jojofruits"]

The RCVS guidelines are crystal clear on this. I don't think its an RVNs place to decide which bits to adhere too and which bits not too?

[/quote]

There is nothing on the original post to suggest who has asked anon to train a non student, so we don't know if it was a VS a VN or even a PM who made the request

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Sal the 1st — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 22:02:54 GMT

[quote user="Jean Douglas"]

Rather than "Schedule 3 is such a small part of what our job is about" schedule 3 allows us to do our jobs.

Imagine your mum, sister, daughter, husband, son, granddad, (or you) was in hospital & somebody was giving them an injection, tablet, treatment, would it be ok for those care staff to have no qualifications , just informal on-the-job training by an trainer who has no teaching qualifications.

[/quote]

so what percentage of your working day is taken up by schedule 3 procedures? - for me the actual sched 3 amounts to very little, but the rest of the time not spent doing schedule 3 is still useful to the overall running of the practice, if it wasn't I doubt they would still be wanting to employ me or pay me what I consider to be a fair wage.

I know I am repeating myself but we simply aren't turning out nurses at a rate where there are too many of them. Auxilliaries are widely used to fill the shortfall and to me if you are using auxilliaries, nursing assistants or whatever title you may wish to give them then it is only fair to them they are trained to a level of what the practice expects them to do. There are auxilliaries and nursing assistants out there that have many years of experience. Do all of the nurses who mentor students have a teaching qualification? - I don't think they do

If you don't have enough qualified nurses to carry out the duties required then your choices are show somebody else how to do them or split yourself down the middle somehow and do the job yourself on top of the job you are already doing. Unless you can wave a magic wand and instantly come up with another solution.

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Jean Douglas — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 21:11:37 GMT

Rather than "Schedule 3 is such a small part of what our job is about" schedule 3 allows us to do our jobs.

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Jean Douglas — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 20:09:08 GMT

"veterinary surgery " means the art and science of veterinary surgery and medicine and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, shall be taken to include- (a) the diagnosis of diseases in, and injuries to, animals including tests performed on animals for diagnostic purposes ; (b) the giving of advice based upon such diagnosis ; (c) the medical or surgical treatment of animals ; and (d) the performance of surgical operations on animals" Most of my professional work has been possible because of Schedule 3

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

jojofruits — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 17:47:04 GMT

The RCVS guidelines are crystal clear on this. I don't think its an RVNs place to decide which bits to adhere too and which bits not too?

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

apache — Fri, 11 Jan 2019 00:56:42 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Schedule 3 is such a small part of what our job is about and I would rather a member of staff has access to training and knowledge to help them do what is required than they don't.[/quote]

I agree with you. This doesn't have to be an all or nothing event, you can train them in 95% of what they need to do.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]which schedule 3 procedures are we talking about here?[/quote]

Also a good question. Whilst RCVS guidance suggests that blood sampling, IV cannula placement, IM injections should be a VN task I challenge any of you to show me that exact wording in the VSA 1966. If push came to shove how different is it really putting a needle under the skin (ok), compared to into a muscle or into a vein (maybe not ok). I can see a good lawyer getting that thrown out (I honestly can't see a prosecution ever being forthcoming). If they took it further and started doing minor surgery then I think there would be a case to answer.

A lot of healthcare assistants in the NHS are trained in house by the GP surgeries to give vaccinations, take blood etc.

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Sal the 1st — Thu, 10 Jan 2019 23:10:34 GMT

which schedule 3 procedures are we talking about here? Perhaps one of the vets could train her in this area if this is a vet request that she should learn this? and the VS takes responsibility as she will be working under the direction of the VS. Other than that I see no problem in training her.Schedule 3 is such a small part of what our job is about and I would rather a member of staff has access to training and knowledge to help them do what is required than they don't. If we aren't turning out nurses in sufficient numbers then you have to make use of what you have - unless you want to take on the extra workload yourself.

RE: Asked to train a non-student nurse - advice needed please!

Nick Shackleton — Wed, 09 Jan 2019 14:42:56 GMT

I would just quote the RCVS guidelines. Particularly those surrounding schedule 3 and say you’re not happy. You could also add that as a registered professional you are accountable for your actions and therefore by letting them undertake and then said tasks you are putting your registeration in jeopardy