Vet Nurse Chatter

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Sal the 1st — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 19:06:07 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

However, on VetNurse, we do NOT require you to explicitly state that you have done this whenever you upload a photo. I'm happy to take that as a given.

[/quote]

I'm happy with that I think sometimes too many rules over complicate something that should be simple - but being on the admin team of a couple of fb groups and having to deal with some of the spats that occur there among grown adults I can see why they are brought in sometimes

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 09:42:40 GMT

Well, I'm not going to comment on other people's rules, but the rules here on VetNurse are that you are not allowed to post other people's copyright images, and you should get the permission of an owner before sharing an image of a recognisable part of their animal! (it's fine to share an unrecognisable image, such as a radiograph).

However, on VetNurse, we do NOT require you to explicitly state that you have done this whenever you upload a photo. I'm happy to take that as a given.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Sal the 1st — Fri, 07 Sep 2018 09:18:40 GMT

[quote user="Sarino"]

That group thoroughly irritated me so I left, (the constant rules and permission to post thing)Bloody ridiculous.

[/quote]

I am in quite a few restoration groups on fb - in many of the groups there have been problems in the past with people posting pictures that they have swiped from elsewhere. Some of my pictures taken at the Last Lightning show of 1987 are doing the circuit right now accredited to somebody who would have been in his pram when he was supposedly taking those pictures. Our rules are simple - watermark your pics before posting and don't post anything that you wouldn't be happy to be shared, technical data is usually backed up by referencing the official manual ie manual edition, aircraft mk and year and page number - even though all of the groups are closed people still copy and share without permission. These groups have helped a lot of people get vintage aircraft back in the air but they have also caused a lot of problems

But back to the chatter group - I found it a real vipers nest. There were posts on there in the early days that had employers seen them them would not only have resulted in people being fired but would have resulted in legal action for defamation - I left

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

JaneRVN — Thu, 06 Sep 2018 18:51:01 GMT

Exactly - the rules are from the RCVS so if you are happy to be a screen shot away from being removed from the register or sued for copyright then you go for it!

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Leah Zykin — Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:00:23 GMT

[quote user="David Gibbins"]

the rules exist because the admin are the ones who get into trouble when people break the law/ professional code of conduct.

copywrite law is important. Read up on it.

As rvns we have to consider these things and act accordingly.

[/quote]

Agreed!

I’ve seen first hand the issues that can arise from using a copyrighted image. It didn’t affect the person that posted it-it affected the person that owned the site, and it wasn’t cheap!

If I were facing legal action multiple times because of something other people were posting on a group I own then absolutely I’m introducing rules to prevent this. (Although in all honesty I’m more likely to shut the page down as I wouldn’t want the hassle, so I think it’s great they keep it going)

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

David Gibbins — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 13:38:52 GMT

the rules exist because the admin are the ones who get into trouble when people break the law/ professional code of conduct.

copywrite law is important. Read up on it.

As rvns we have to consider these things and act accordingly.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Sarino — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 13:23:57 GMT

[quote user="Charley83"]I got thrown out for not putting permission to post pic of own dog and all the posts on rules was starting to annoy me. Was going to leave anyway.[/quote]

yes,

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Sarino — Tue, 28 Aug 2018 13:22:45 GMT

That group thoroughly irritated me so I left, (the constant rules and permission to post thing)Bloody ridiculous.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Sal the 1st — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 03:38:47 GMT

[quote user="Sidonia"]

I'm probably going to stick out like a sore thumb now, but I can't see the harm in homeopathy and other 'alternative' treatments, provided it is used alongside conventional medicine and not as a sole treatment.

[/quote]

Have had to think carefully about making this post as it will probably get me a lifetime ban as an undesirable. Feel free to remove and remove me if needs be

I will start by declaring a personal interest as complementary practitioner. A villain, public enemy no1 - Boo Hiss

As a stand alone I do see harm in homeopathy if it is used instead of 'allopathic' treatment. Used as an adjunct to conventional treatment where it may elicit or heighten a placebo effect I see no harm. Used when everything else has failed and there is nothing left to try - again I see no harm unless it prevents the patient seeking viable treatment for the condition as it becomes available. If the case is hopeless and the patient receives relief even if only a placebo I feel it is cruel to deny them that. Demonising and driving it out of the practice and into the high street means that humans and animals that should be consulting with health care professionals are instead taking advice from people that really aren't qualified to be giving it. Problems that may have been seen earlier and dealt with more effectively in practice are then seen much later when the condition has worsened.

What I cannot understand with all the furore we have had over homeopathy is that acupuncture hasn't been dealt with similarly. How would you produce a trial for acupuncture that isn't flawed?Why is homeopathy so bad and acupuncture accepted?

I have trained in human acupuncture - used it for quite a while but there are now only a very very few instances that I would actually use it (and then only on myself) as I have moved on and learnt better ways of getting a result.

my chosen flavour of complementary practice? much more subtle and effective than homeopathy or acupuncture,no medication, no needles - I just mess with your head.... Trust me I'm a hypnotist.

'But anecdotally I would suggest that many people do not verify or know how to verify the information they see.' (quoting David but this is a reply to both David and Arlo)

I do think that there is more chance and greater opportunity now than there ever has been for people to check the veracity of what is claimed. I see the internet as a double edged sword - on the one hand yes there is Dr Google and personal opinion but look only a little way beyond the first few pages and the more reliable stuff often appears as if by magic. I do feel that some people are lazy (and getting lazier) and never look beyond the first few links and then base their understanding on what might be very dodgy foundations and often quote information to support their case without really understanding it but I would like to think that if they were up against it and they really needed serious answers they might look a little further than they would generally

Anyway that's me its finally cooling down some, its thundering, no rain yet and its time for me to hit my pit. Might see you all later if I'm still allowed

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Charley83 — Fri, 27 Jul 2018 01:05:18 GMT

I got thrown out for not putting permission to post pic of own dog and all the posts on rules was starting to annoy me. Was going to leave anyway.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Sidonia — Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:34:32 GMT

And I quite like vetnurse chatter

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:10:21 GMT

Caro Laithwaite VN and David Gibbins - over the last few months, I've put a lot of thought and money into the future direction of both vetsurgeon.org and vetnurse.co.uk. It has involved a lot of reflection about what the sites are trying to do, which is summarised in our new 'mission statement':

Our mission: to support the veterinary nursing profession
by facilitating the sharing of knowledge, experience and information.

One of the things I have come to learn is a major barrier to that is people being unnecessarily personal or unkind in the forums, something which in the past has affected both vetsurgeon.org and vetnurse.co.uk. In short, who wants to post an opinion or share something useful if they see others being shot down in flames?

Caro Laithwaite VN, I thought your reply to David was precisely that: overly personal and unkind, so I edited it in a way that hopefully your main point remains.

I now have a rule on both sites that anyone who repeatedly posts stuff that I think is likely to put others off contributing gets banned.

Back to the point about information sources ...

[quote user="David Gibbins"]But anecdotally I would suggest that many people do not verify or know how to verify the information they see. [/quote]

I think I probably agree with the first point, but less so the second.

I think we can all be influenced to some degree or other, sometimes quite subtly, by information we see on social media. So for example, someone reports anecdotal experience of a drug or treatment, saying it worked.

Verifying that info means looking at the efficacy studies to see how effective the drug really is. But who does that? I doubt very many! Instead we walk away with an impression that the drug works because of someone's anecdotal report.

Facebook is awash with that kind of thing, and as I said earlier, one often has absolutely no idea of the credentials of the person sharing the information.

I think the solution is partly helped by having profiles everyone can see (as here), so you can better judge a poster's qualifications. More importantly (and I think you alluded to this in another post, David), is to try and make sure that any claims are referenced.

That of course leads on to the quality of the reference - how good was the study? How many animals? Double-blind placebo-controlled? ...

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

David Gibbins — Thu, 26 Jul 2018 00:10:44 GMT

Yes it is.

But anecdotally I would suggest that many people do not verify or know how to verify the information they see.

Me, I am most likely to use information I find online as a stepping off point in my study/development. A spark of inspiration.

If other people want to log it, good for them . I'm sire we all utilise our cpd records differently

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

James Colver Cert. Ed, RVN — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:55:25 GMT

The process of verifying information is the same regardless of the source of the information.

As previous posters have commented, the opportunities for learning are everywhere for those with their noses to the ground. I have been in the profession for 20 years next year, qualified for 18, but when I log into Facebook I often learn new things from the likes of Lou the Vet Nurse or Veterinary Anursthesia. If I need to verify something I have picked up from such a source, it's not difficult. I don't record it as CPD but I might well do now that it has been suggested - and why not..? Look at the RCVS guidelines as to what counts as CPD - professional discussions, shadowing other people, secondments to other practices, discussing case reports.. much of this sort of activity is unlikely to come from 'accredited' sources but I would hope that most of us have the opportunity to reflect upon our learning and evaluate the evidence behind it (when there is any).

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

David Gibbins — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:51:44 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

[quote user="David Gibbins"]i would never try to use/claim facebook as a cpd source. The thought of that horrifies me. [/quote]

What, not even learning from Veterinary Wound Library? The Bandaging Angels?! Georgie Hollis!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/vetwoundlibrary/

[/quote]

VWL is great, it was the only online group i did not leave.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

David Gibbins — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:46:10 GMT

sweeping statement?

Like your entire post?

please do tell me how i have a closed mind.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

David Gibbins — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:39:08 GMT

I stand by my comment.

There is no real way to verify source or quality of information gained from facebook. It does not come close to more regular avenues of study.

I try to ensure that the bulk of my CPD is from accredited sources, so i can prove that the information is accurate.

That is not to say that i don't utilise the community on facebook, but it is not part of my CPD.

I would also be worried if RVNs were using facebook as a main source of cpd. Because of the quality insecurity.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 22:59:36 GMT

I think l joined chatter or asked to join it was a moment of insanity that as far as l know passed without me actually seeing the rubbish.

[quote user="David Gibbins"]

i would never try to use/claim facebook as a cpd source. The thought of that horrifies me.[/quote]

I have learnt a lot from fb and anyone that makes this sweeping statement about horrified about learning from fb not worth my time. There is loads if very interesting people on there to those without closed minds.

Ed's note - post edited to remove unduly personal remarks.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:41:07 GMT

[quote user="David Gibbins"]i would never try to use/claim facebook as a cpd source. The thought of that horrifies me. [/quote]

What, not even learning from Veterinary Wound Library? The Bandaging Angels?! Georgie Hollis!

https://www.facebook.com/groups/vetwoundlibrary/

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

David Gibbins — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 11:28:08 GMT

i would never try to use/claim facebook as a cpd source. The thought of that horrifies me.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:55:46 GMT

My twopenn'orth of opinion...

Humour or satire are coping mechanisms that helps people to deal with complex and contradictory messages, a “response to conflict and confusion in our brain”.

They can perform a potent social function by challenging taboos, unfounded theories, believed ‘norms’ and definitely provokes people to think rather than ‘accept’

They can use plain logic to make confusing or painful things make common sense

They get us to think more flexibly and reframe situations

*If they’re laughing they’re listening*

However, if they are not laughing, are offended by it and therefore reject the message - then we haven’t reached the sweet spot, which is where David Gibbins argument falls, yes?

My philosophy therefore is that there is need for both kinds of persuasions as voiced by Arlo and David... I can see that you’re both right but in different ways.

Life is always a PushmePullyou.

We’ll get there!

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:14:08 GMT

[quote user="David Gibbins"]it has changed a lot.[/quote]

David Gibbins and Ben Ogden

I've been a member of a few facebook groups, and I think facebook itself has a couple of big flaws which make it a very imperfect solution for veterinary clinical discussions.

The first and probably biggest thing is the fact that you can't see someone's profile unless they are a friend on facebook. That means that you really don't know whether you're talking to someone who knows what they are talking about, or not!

On vetnurse.co.uk, all members can see each other's profiles. On top of that, we have the new agree/disagree/like/thank you feature, which posts members' total scores adjacent to their posts. That gives you an 'at-a-glance' idea of someone's cred ...

On facebook, I don't know about you, but I find the threads very, very difficult to refer back to (because of the way posts are hidden). I guess not much of a problem with a discussion about something trivial, but when it is about some aspect of treatment and you want to go back and remind yourself what someone wrote, that is a problem.

On vetnurse, I would say the way threads are laid out makes it much easier to flick through and find what was written.

On facebook, you can spend a lot of time composing / reading questions and answers, but verv hard to keep proper records of time spent to claim towards your annual CPD requirement.

On VetNurse, you just click 'Claim CPD' at the top of the thread you are reading, note time and what you learned (in a few words). System then produces a certificate of time spent, detailing the actual discussions.

Don't get me wrong, facebook groups are good. But having seen the growth in facebook groups over the last few years, what I have done now is make sure that vetnurse.co.uk and vetsurgeon.org address the main weaknesses and provide the best possible platform for sharing and discussing CLINICAL things.

That is now my main objective - not to take anything away from FB groups, which are great for what they are. But instead to provide a much better platform specifically for professional clinical discussions.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:10:03 GMT

[quote user="David Gibbins"]Mocking and ridiculing a fringe group has never made them change their views. Instead it helps weaponise their feelings of persecution and feed their outrage.[/quote]

David Gibbins I agree with you. But remember, my objective is not to try and win them over or change their views, but instead to highlight the insanity of homeopathy and therefore help ensure that others don't fall for it (which many do).

I feel passionately about this, largely because of my own experience of being the parent of a sick child.

That's why I think it is SO important to have a robust counter-narrative to the lies put out by the pro homeopathy lobby (such as the idea that homeopathy can cure cancer: http://www.bahvs.com/cancer-case-1/cancer-case-2/, which I think is a wicked thing to claim to the owners of sick animals).

[quote user="David Gibbins"]I spend a lot of time reaching out to advocates of the pseudosciences, and have made some good progress in "leading them back" to the light of evidence based science.[/quote]

I would be very, very interested to know more about the progress you have made and how you achieved it.

[quote user="David Gibbins"]But that one article saw my inbox explode. And even now its used in fringe sites as a reason why RVNs are not to be trusted/ as bad as "big pharma" etc.[/quote]

The 'big pharma' or 'RVNs/Drs/vets' not to be trusted is nothing new and existed well before that one article!

[quote user="David Gibbins"]You are in such an awesome position to help voice and inform our young profession, just remember that "with great power comes great responsibility".[/quote]

It is a responsibility I take very seriously, and I hope that even if you and I do not agree about this, you can understand that I have sound reasons for approaching this issue the way that I do.

I think it is perhaps worth putting that story in some context. Homeopathy is a very fringe activity practised by a small number of people which I have written about 18 times in 18 years (ie once a year). Out of those, only one was written using humour to ridicule. One in 18 years, and I have probably had almost as much positive feedback about it as negative. So I'm not sure I deserve a public flogging for it!

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

David Gibbins — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 20:40:08 GMT

it has changed a lot.

I quit all veterinary based social media groups a while ago. I found to many of them just wound me up. But I have started dipping my toes back into them.

RE: Vet Nurse Chatter

Sal the 1st — Tue, 24 Jul 2018 20:36:02 GMT

[quote user="David Gibbins"]

Mocking and ridiculing a fringe group has never made them change their views. Instead it helps weaponise their feelings of persecution and feed their outrage.

[/quote]

couldn't agree more