Protecting nurses role

RE: Protecting nurses role

WelshyNurse — Sat, 31 Mar 2018 21:19:58 GMT

“As you have said on many occasions, you are no longer working in a nursing capacity and have a more managerial role these days.“ ^^^ I meant I was on a very good salary when I was nursing, not my current salary. I was on more when I was nursing than i see RVN jobs being advertised now. So, like I said, there was no point for me. I know that won’t be the case for everyone though, I am speaking for myself.

RE: Protecting nurses role

Sal the 1st — Sat, 31 Mar 2018 18:27:29 GMT

I think you are right there will be times when none of us see eye to eye (especially with me being such a short ass I struggle most times). People have done what they need to do and because there is no absolute requirement for the qualification then there is no wrong.

RE: Protecting nurses role

Nick Shackleton — Sat, 31 Mar 2018 18:23:40 GMT

[quote user="Tania Ford"]

As you have said on many occasions, you are no longer working in a nursing capacity and have a more managerial role these days. I’m glad you are on a decent salary, as I was also earning more than a qualified nurse, and am today on what I consider a relatively decent salary. I wanted to better myself and prove that after all of my years experience, I did ACTUALY know what I had been doing was right for all of those years! Many independant practices are being bought out by corporates, and unqualified nurses risk being made redundant or moved sideways to a more managerial/office position just because there are parts of the job that are NOT allowed to be done by unqualifies. I went on to prove myself to my piers and now feel safe in the fact that I will ALWAYS be able to do what I have always done. I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on this one, which is a shame as the profession is ever changing and we should move with the times and not stand still!

[/quote]

its all about safe guarding your future. Well done for pushing yourself and qualifying.

RE: Protecting nurses role

Tania Ford — Sat, 31 Mar 2018 16:48:23 GMT

RE: Protecting nurses role

WelshyNurse — Fri, 30 Mar 2018 21:50:40 GMT

[quote user="Tania Ford"]What i don't understand is why so many good unqualified nurses are so against gaining their qualification??[/quote]

this thread has kind of answered that.

I’ve never felt the need and been offered more than once over the years. If it wouldnt have changed my daily job and I am on a very good salary (more than some RVNs) then why would I?

RE: Protecting nurses role

apache — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 22:53:59 GMT

[quote user="Tania Ford"]Make monitoring anaesthesia ONLY possible if you are a RVN, SVN (under direct supervision) or Certificate holder.[/quote]

I think unworkable. You have to remember that there is a huge diversity in veterinary practice in this country, we are not all small animal practices with 4 vets and 6 nurses. We are a mixed practice and have 1 SVN who monitors 75% of anaesthetics, a lay staff member who does some nursing duties who does the other 20% and then 2 other members of staff who may cover the other 5%. It would never pay to train these people on a formal course and I doubt they would have the enthusiasm for a little used skill. If we had someone doing it for a significant proportion of their time then yes. I couldn't get them the 200 required hours of anaesthetic monitoring.

[quote user="WelshyNurse"]Also, the anaesthetic cert is out there, but it’s not RCVS approved. So again, what’s the point? [/quote]

In the event of a complaint information would be collected by the RCVS. Staff would be interviewed. Such a qualification would absolutely be taken into account if a complaint centred around the monitoring of the anaesthetic.

[quote user="Tania Ford"]What i don't understand is why so many good unqualified nurses are so against gaining their qualification?? I know its difficult to get training posts and costs, but with the apprenticeship scheme, it only costs the practice £600 (and obviously days at college etc) and the government pays the rest.[/quote]

1. I don't want any more nurses

2. The £600 is irrelevant. The costs to the practice are:

Supporting and training the student (NPL, clinical coaching) tying up additional staff members

Paying the student when at college and not contributing to the practice workload

Time spent in practice doing college work

Money spent on courses, extra training and learning materials

Money spent on Prosecco and meals out when they pass exams......

I'm on call now and if I have to do a GA I will raise someone to help me. In a mixed practice that happens rarely. I'm used to operating on cows, sheep and horses by myself so you become anaesthetist, assistant and surgeon. I'll happily sedate small animals OOH on my own.

RE: Protecting nurses role

Sidonia — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 19:08:15 GMT

"What i don't understand is why so many good unqualified nurses are so against gaining their qualification?? I know its difficult to get training posts and costs, but with the apprenticeship scheme, it only costs the practice £600 (and obviously days at college etc) and the government pays the rest."

Exactly what I have been wondering!

RE: Protecting nurses role

Tania Ford — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 18:26:09 GMT

Im not going to get into the argument of qualifieds v unqualifieds, as i worked for 25 years as a senior unqualified nurse and trained many SVN's during this time - as i felt it was 'just a piece of paper, therefore why bother - (so i do fully understand unqualifieds feelings on the subject). I did, however feel that as the profession as a whole has changed so much in the last 10 years, that to continue doing what had always been a vocation for me, i HAD to gain that said 'piece of paper', therefore i knuckled down and got it!

What i don't understand is why so many good unqualified nurses are so against gaining their qualification?? I know its difficult to get training posts and costs, but with the apprenticeship scheme, it only costs the practice £600 (and obviously days at college etc) and the government pays the rest.

Anyway, that's my last word on the whole 'to qualify or not to qualify' discussion, as i don't want to get into any arguments with people and keep going around the mulberry bush.

RE: Protecting nurses role

Tania Ford — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 17:17:03 GMT

[quote user="WelshyNurse"]Also, the anaesthetic cert is out there, but it’s not RCVS approved. So again, what’s the point?[/quote]

No exactly - so make it RCVS accredited!

RE: Protecting nurses role

WelshyNurse — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:48:37 GMT

[quote user="Tania Ford"]We all know that a lot of unqualified nurses are filling the gap because of the lack of RVN's out there.[/quote]

Not really. Again, there is no requirement to have an RVN in a practice so not all are just ‘filling gaps’.

Also, the anaesthetic cert is out there, but it’s not RCVS approved. So again, what’s the point?

RE: Protecting nurses role

Tania Ford — Thu, 29 Mar 2018 16:04:40 GMT

[quote user="Nick Shackleton ️‍"] Anaesthetic monitoring is a very highly skilled and in depth subject[/quote]

My only suggestion on this issue as we have been here, done it all before in these forums - Why not make anaesthesia a 'certified' area of responsibility (so long as it is RCVS accredited)? We all know that a lot of unqualified nurses are filling the gap because of the lack of RVN's out there. Make monitoring anaesthesia ONLY possible if you are a RVN, SVN (under direct supervision) or Certificate holder. Im sure there would be plenty of 'lay staff' out there that would be willing to undertake training and gain a certificate in this area, if they do not wish to undertake their nurse training. This, in my eyes would then solve the constant frustrations about unqualified staff. Im sure it would be relatively easy to set up training and certification program in this field.......or is this just wishful thinking???

RE: Protecting nurses role

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:42:25 GMT

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]I like this idea[/quote]

Nice to hear someone does

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]lets get started. /me rolls up sleeves, what can I do?[/quote]

Thank you :)

First I want to make sure that we've got a really comprehensive list on that page you've already contributed towards: https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/working-together/w/veterinary-nursing-jobs-career-recruitment-advice/1099.tasks-performed-by-veterinary-nurses-and-veterinary-nursing-assistants.aspx

(because that runs in parallel).

Then I think we need to consider, separately but in conjunction, what broad areas everyone would want to include in an employer's pledge. Then we can start to narrow it down and define things more precisely.

The areas that come to my mind are:

Respect the qualification
Use people qualified for the job when you have them (relates to list I mentioned above)
Allow nurses to contribute financially
Charge for VN clinics
Have a written and disseminated zero tolerance of bullying policy
Have a conflict resolution policy in place
Pay peanuts, get monkeys (so don't!)

These are just thoughts - I'm not saying they're right. What do you think? What else would make an employer stand out for you?

Thoughts everyone ...

RE: Protecting nurses role

Ben Ogden — Wed, 28 Mar 2018 15:39:49 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

At the risk of repeating myself, I refer back again to Arlo Guthrie (Editor)

idea about where we could start to address the issues we are (all) frustrated about... What do we think about his idea? So far I seem to have been the only one that's commented on it? [/quote]

You mean this idea? https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/veterinary-nurse-forum/f/5/p/31034/171888.aspx#171888

Yes, I notice nobody else commented - assuming because others think it's a crap idea?!

I'm not precious about these things, so if anyone DOES think it's a rubbish idea, do say so, I won't be offended!

[/quote]

I like this idea, lets get started. /me rolls up sleeves, what can I do?

RE: Protecting nurses role

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 26 Mar 2018 18:16:56 GMT

one star and no commentary? What dontcha like?! Tanks. X

RE: Protecting nurses role

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 26 Mar 2018 14:29:38 GMT

Seriously, isn't this the single most important point? Isn't it the reason why, in the absence of a large enough workforce of RVNs and evidence that a qualified person monitoring improves patient outcomes, it cannot and should not be the preserve of veterinary nurses to monitor anaesthetics?

Surely a more pragmatic position at this point would be an official recommendation of some sort that practices have anaesthetic monitoring performed by an RVN, when one is available.

Such a recommendation would help engender greater respect for the qualification and training. Hopefully it would start to reduce the anecdotal incidences we hear of when practices use a lay member of staff to monitor, when there's an RVN available (how demoralising is that for the RVN?)

Of course, there are going to be situations where practices have been using a highly experienced but unqualified member of staff to monitor, sometimes in preference to an RVN (presumably because the operating vet trusts the lay member of staff, perhaps more than the recently-qualified RVN). A recommendation allows that to continue.

But a recommendation is just a first step. If there was demand, and enough RVNs to meet that demand, and evidence that monitoring by an RVN produced better patient outcomes, then it could become something stronger than a recommendation.

Meantime, it strikes me as pragmatic to say: "Look, we don't know whether RVN monitoring improves patient outcomes. We know that in any event, the vet is ultimately responsible (and perfectly capable). But we can probably assume that someone who has had the depth of training that a RVN has will in most cases be better placed to assist the vet than an unknown quantity. And we know there is a crisis in the VN profession partly caused by a lack of respect for / use of the qualification. And we can probably assume that if you asked most owners whether they would prefer their animal monitored by a qualified member of staff, they'd say yes! Therefore we recommend that RVNs are used in preference to lay staff."

THIS!!

RE: Protecting nurses role

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 26 Mar 2018 12:39:43 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

At the risk of repeating myself, I refer back again to Arlo Guthrie (Editor)

idea about where we could start to address the issues we are (all) frustrated about... What do we think about his idea? So far I seem to have been the only one that's commented on it? [/quote]

You mean this idea? https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/veterinary-nurse-forum/f/5/p/31034/171888.aspx#171888

Yes, I notice nobody else commented - assuming because others think it's a crap idea?!

I'm not precious about these things, so if anyone DOES think it's a rubbish idea, do say so, I won't be offended!

RE: Protecting nurses role

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 26 Mar 2018 06:50:42 GMT

We all have crap days (sometimes weeks, months and years) ChrisRossiter so I understand the outburst. It was clearly out of character, and with much provocation, as you have very politely apologised. Well done and thanks from us all in this debate (I hope I can speak for us all?!). Now then..

How do you eat an elephant?

One chunk at a time.

At the risk of repeating myself, I refer back again to Arlo Guthrie 's idea about where we could start to address the issues we are (all) frustrated about... What do we think about his idea? So far I seem to have been the only one that's commented on it?

Come on Eileen... Oops, that's a song. Come on Down... Oops, that's a TV show

Come on people - let's get movin' !

peace, love, solidarity

Ali h xx

RE: Protecting nurses role

ChrisRossiter — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 21:32:08 GMT

[quote user="WelshyNurse"]

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]

[quote user="WelshyNurse"]

Just curious as to why you should have two separate titles for qualified and unqualified assistants..

The unqualified ones assist with the nursing of animals so surely they should be called animal nursing assistants too no?

^^^

No. My kennel assistants clean kennels, kits, consult rooms and help on reception etc

My ANAs do nursing duties, nurse clinics, monitoring anaesthetic etc

As for the title thing, I said RVNs should be called just that. I know of unqualified vet nurses that have been doing it longer than I’ve been alive! They don’t have any qualifications but to me they are Vet Nurses. That’s another argument I’m not getting into again though.

[/quote]

But they aren't vet nurses. They can't call themselves vet nurses. I've been playing video games and playing football since I was a kid. I don't call myself a professional gamer or footballer. Because I'm not. I'm not registered anywhere as such and I'm not paid to do either.

This is the problem. I get that's how you feel and see things but it's not on. If they were or are so passionate to be vet nurses or do the job of a vet nurse. Then hey. Go become a vet nurse.

If age comes into it for retraining/studying then I call bull. I've met students in their older years and work with RVNs in their 50s or older. They trained to become an RVN and so should anyone that wants to be treated like an RVN or called as such.

I get that your practice may struggle to get RVNs in. But that's the industry. Also as an RVN. I wouldn't step foot in a practice that pays more to an ANA or has more respect or trust in them.

Maybe that's in part a reason you can't get RVNs in?

May your practice be successful and have an awesome team. However I would go dragons den style and say. I'm out.

[/quote]

Goes back to what I’ve said before though, if they are already doing a vet nurse job and getting paid well, why bother with the RVN qualification?

I‘m not struggling for RVNs at the moment, I have all I need. The last 2 RVNs I took on were well aware of how things were run and knew they would be led by unqualified nurse and still joined us so non issue. Like I’ve said before, it depends on the practice and the staff but all mine are happy.

I‘m not getting into it anymore with you, I think you’ve gone a bit far with your comments and are turning into insults.

I have no doubt your probably a fab RVN, but does not make you any better or superior to us unqualifieds.

[/quote]

I apologise for my outburst. Hard week. I just put my all into becoming an RVN and put up and had to deal with a hell of a lot of crap to do so. Wont go into details but I was on the verge of giving up several times and not once because of my own progress.

So I just feel aggrieved that there was basically zero point in putting myself through all that, when I could have just found the right practice to take me on and not bother with being an RVN and having to worry about my professional conduct, keep up with cpd, be a clinical coach, yadda yadda yadda.

I'd have to experience it for myself to truly understand. I just find the pay for RVNs so embarrassing as it is, that to hear that ANA's are paid more in some places puts more thoughts as to why im bothering wasting my life being in a profession like this.

I'm starting to feel like it's all made out to be something its far far from......

Anyway. I apologise for my crappy posts. As you can probably tell, I posted on the way home from a long day at work and was a tad grumpy.

Back to the main part of this thread. Is there any point in being an RVN? Haha.

RE: Protecting nurses role

Emma Aurelia — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 20:09:54 GMT

Very true Sal . I also think some kind of formal training is good for morale and a sense of achievement ..and validation for the staff member which in turn promotes confidence ..? .opens up future career choices and shows dedication and determination to be good in your role ..

RE: Protecting nurses role

Sal the 1st — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 19:22:14 GMT

[quote user="Emma Aurelia"]

I like you're ideas and thinking. Anything that will help people progress and excel is all Good. I had to retake my maths a few years ago , already had the others . I think despite this I am considering doing the ANA course because it gets you learning and thinking plus you have to do a log too and the exam at the end. You can do this volluntary or paid at min 20hrs per week up to 30 ( 600 hrs in total ) ...having not been in the learning zone for some time this may be right for me ..and if I am lucky enough to do VN training in the future I will already have had some experience on the theory side ..yiu can do the course at colledge or distance leading . If for some reason I don't go on to do VN training I would still have a qualification ..win win situation !

[/quote]

which is the reason I feel that everybody who plays a part in veterinary nursing should have at least the ANA and some formal background knowledge its a measurable, transferable qualification, keyskills maths and English would also be good to have for those missing out on the grades for vet nursing

RE: Protecting nurses role

Emma Aurelia — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 18:16:17 GMT

As for the other issues has anyone looked at this which is being done by the RCVS nursing sidehttp://vetfutures.org.uk/download/publications/VN%20%20futures%20report(3).pdf

RE: Protecting nurses role

Sal the 1st — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 16:47:38 GMT

[quote user="apache"]

One thing that I think would help with the up skilling of other staff is removing the absolute requirement for C grades in English, maths and science if they can show equivalent qualifications (and include a ANA course in that). We have one girl working for us and she doesn't have the C in maths.

[/quote]

Strongly agree with this. The written exam is now easier than it has ever been, reduced largely to a box ticking exercise - you could pick somebody off the street with absolutely no prior knowledge and on any question they would have a 25% chance of hitting on the right answer even if they didn't understand the question. Ok I know the whole exam is much more than a multiple choice but this has made the exam easier for both the examiner and the student than say having to write or mark an essay question on 'the functions of the liver' (which still haunts me to this day- wish I had picked the kidney question).

The exam has been made easier and the entrance requirement should be eased to reflect this.

I am working with an ANA now who has an excellent, practical mind but just lacks the academic grades, if the opportunity arose she would jump at the chance to train, she is keen, she wants to learn and I really think people like this can be an asset to veterinary nursing and should be allowed.

I also think it should be made easier for practices to become training practices - far too many hoops, too much paperwork going on - go back to the green book style and get more places involved. I'm not buying the whole standardisation guff because what I see coming through in qualified nurses now is not standardised.

RE: Protecting nurses role

apache — Sun, 25 Mar 2018 15:44:04 GMT

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"] I wouldn't step foot in a practice that pays more to an ANA or has more respect or trust in them.[/quote]

I have the same amount of trust and respect for ALL members of staff, whatever their qualification. We just happen to do different roles in the practice based on skills, qualifications and availability.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Get the basic level right, a standard that is attainable for everybody, for practices of all sizes and levels of expertise that can be built on and instantly more people become interested in doing more to get to the next level - instead of what we have now where some places have a cat in hells chance of reaching the impossible and as a result lose interest in doing so.[/quote]

I don't think what we currently have is so far off the mark (but then I'm looking from the side of the vet rather than the nurse). One thing that I think would help with the up skilling of other staff is removing the absolute requirement for C grades in English, maths and science if they can show equivalent qualifications (and include a ANA course in that). We have one girl working for us and she doesn't have the C in maths.

RE: Protecting nurses role

WelshyNurse — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:57:40 GMT

[quote user="ChrisRossiter"]

[quote user="WelshyNurse"]

Just curious as to why you should have two separate titles for qualified and unqualified assistants..

The unqualified ones assist with the nursing of animals so surely they should be called animal nursing assistants too no?

^^^

No. My kennel assistants clean kennels, kits, consult rooms and help on reception etc

My ANAs do nursing duties, nurse clinics, monitoring anaesthetic etc

[/quote]

This is the problem. I get that's how you feel and see things but it's not on. If they were or are so passionate to be vet nurses or do the job of a vet nurse. Then hey. Go become a vet nurse.

I get that your practice may struggle to get RVNs in. But that's the industry. Also as an RVN. I wouldn't step foot in a practice that pays more to an ANA or has more respect or trust in them.

Maybe that's in part a reason you can't get RVNs in?

May your practice be successful and have an awesome team. However I would go dragons den style and say. I'm out.

[/quote]

Goes back to what I’ve said before though, if they are already doing a vet nurse job and getting paid well, why bother with the RVN qualification?

I‘m not getting into it anymore with you, I think you’ve gone a bit far with your comments and are turning into insults.

I have no doubt your probably a fab RVN, but does not make you any better or superior to us unqualifieds.

RE: Protecting nurses role

WelshyNurse — Sat, 24 Mar 2018 13:49:28 GMT

[quote user="Scottywildcat"]

Wow. Chris Rossiter have you any idea how arrogant and narrow minded you sound?

There are ANAs out there who have years and years of experience, are you really saying that all RVNs are to be given more respect than them, even if they have very little practical experience and think that everything in practice has to be like how they did it in college? You really think a qualification is the be all and end all? I think you would be surprised how many vets would disagree with you, never mind their nursing staff. As for insulting Welshy nurses practice, that's definitely not on, you don't even know how her place is run, and she does have RVNs working there!

[/quote]

Thanks!

I have amazing RVNs, ANAs and kennel assistants and our practice is run very well :-)