Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Nick Shackleton — Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:40:56 GMT

[quote user="Tania Ford"]

[quote user="apache"] Do we know if the CVS 'salary' figure includes such benefits so the take home pay is less?[/quote]

CVS do in fact pay RCVS registration fees and VDS cover (i thinks will pay BVNA membership as well), so their advertised salary will include these fee benefits.

[/quote]

plus other benefits such as cycle to work scheme, reduced gym membership, pension scheme, share scheme too, employee assistance program

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Tania Ford — Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:25:19 GMT

[quote user="apache"] Do we know if the CVS 'salary' figure includes such benefits so the take home pay is less?[/quote]

CVS do in fact pay RCVS registration fees and VDS cover (i thinks will pay BVNA membership as well), so their advertised salary will include these fee benefits.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Tania Ford — Sat, 24 Feb 2018 10:51:03 GMT

[quote user="Susie Susie"]Firstly, public awareness of the veterinary nurse profession definitely needs to improve[/quote]

I feel that there are lots of 'Vet' programs on the television these days, which do a lot to promote animal health and show an insight of what goes on in a veterinary practice. They do however seem to focus mainly on what Veterinary surgeons do, and unfortunately fail to highlight the importance of the Veterinary Nurse. There have been numerous programs following student vets through their training, but so far as im aware, there have never been any programs following student nurses through their training? I feel the only way nurses will be recognised for their importance, is to increase public awareness of what we actually do do on a daily basis. In my experience (which is over 30 years in the profession), most clients are completely unaware that there is even a nurse qualification out there, let alone what we actually do!

Television and social media seems to play a massive part these days in education, so its about time someone did a documentary or series on 'The life of a Veterinary Nurse', or 'How i became a Veterinary Nurse', instead of concentrating on vets like Noel Fitzpatric etc etc.

Lets get the public aware of what we do and can do, and then they may be more prepared and educated enough to spend some of their hard earned cash on some of the services we as nurses can provide.

Arlo - I dont know if this has been suggested before and is something you may be able to try to get a ball rolling on?? - do you have any fingers in any telecommunication pies?????

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:28:30 GMT

[quote user="apache"]Yes, but note the other issues I raise. I'd rather have 4 vets than 3 vets and a number of nurses doing that other vets role, for the reasons I stated above.[/quote]

Well, yes, I take your point, but I think there is a danger here of being too black and white, when the solution probably lies in shades of grey - eg tweaking things to improve things for nurses, rather than replacing vets with nurses!

[quote user="apache"]If I give the nurses a pay rise then the vets will have to have one too.[/quote]

I'm not sure I understand why it necessarily follows that you'd have to increase vets' salaries too.

[quote user="apache"]And herein lies the problem. If this was easy to achieve I think we'd have embraced it as a profession already.[/quote]

Sure. But I wonder what's going to happen if nobody thinks of new ideas / ways of addressing these problems?

Will it lead to more nurses leaving the profession (or not joining it). Do you think there is a risk of that happening in big enough numbers to cause a real problem? Presumably the consequence would be that practices would have to employ more unqualified staff (than they do now) to help.

As you say, no easy answers. I think in terms of immediate benefit, the most important thing is to keep pushing for all practices to make best use of their nurses' skills and qualifications, and show how that can lead to a better life for everyone!

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Selena Carnell — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 21:33:12 GMT

difficult to get the nurses to do more within the practice when we are already understaffed and the nurses are tired. So many new nurses are demanding corporate wages which some of the small independents cannot match. We are constantly fighting the local vets for trade, the prices that they can get drugs at is often less than we can get them in at cost. The pet market is apparently in decline, so also that factor adds in the reluctance to increase wages and also recruiting vets is a night mare too.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

apache — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:59:51 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]which if you save even part of that, is enough for a significant pay rise for a nurse???[/quote]

Yes, but note the other issues I raise. I'd rather have 4 vets than 3 vets and a number of nurses doing that other vets role, for the reasons I stated above. If I give the nurses a pay rise then the vets will have to have one too.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]... which can only the the solution (or part of it), if anyone can think what that novel work might be![/quote]

And herein lies the problem. If this was easy to achieve I think we'd have embraced it as a profession already.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:06:44 GMT

[quote user="apache"]the difference is £77 per day[/quote] which if you save even part of that, is enough for a significant pay rise for a nurse???

[quote user="apache"]This is why I come to the conclusion we need novel work that doesn't exist now, in normal veterinary practice.[/quote]

... which can only the the solution (or part of it), if anyone can think what that novel work might be!

And of course, it must be something that can be done within the existing available work hours. In other words, no point saying we could sell them gardening services too, if that then meant all the nurses were off mowing the lawn

So ... what are you doing already that you could monetise?

O898 number for triage advice?
Monetise the waiting room - sell coffee and tea (the markup on that is huge). Sell other products (ones that you genuinely believe in, rather than just trying to flog stuff for the sake of it).
Of course nurses' clinics should all be paid for
Kennels - I don't know how many practices have the space, but I can't help feeling that a vet-run boarding kennels would be hugely popular. I mean, I can never find a kennels with space in the summer, AND big bonus to say vets and nurses on hand, AND you can market the service to a captive audience.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

apache — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 21:44:00 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]c) For practices to make better (more profitable) use of nurses to reduce the amount of work done (at higher cost) by veterinary surgeons. I have no experience of the economics of veterinary practice, so I am not sure whether this idea could work.[/quote]

Moving as much work as you can from vets onto nurses is one way of doing it, but I have some reservations. Yes a nurse is cheaper, but if you break it down, the staff cost difference is minimal. £40K for an experienced vet, £20K for a nurse, assume 5 day week and the difference is £77 per day. 20 consults that's less than £4 for a vet rather than a nurse.

You have to remember that a vet can do anything a nurse can, but not the other way around. More vets make it easier to cover holiday/sickness/maternity. Better for clinical discussion. What happens when dog comes in for EAG and then asks a number of clinical questions? I really think a POC should (wherever possible) be undertaken by the surgeon who operated.

I think there is scope for using nurses better, but I'm not sure its in the overall best interests of the practice using them to replace vets. The more things nurses do without vets (operating, diagnostics etc) the more nurses you need so that a nurse can nurse for the other nurse. That would be lovely if there were heaps of nurses, there isn't. I know of practices struggling to recruit both vets and nurses.

This is why I come to the conclusion we need novel work that doesn't exist now, in normal veterinary practice.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Nick Shackleton — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 16:38:55 GMT

[quote user="apache"]

Take this as a tangent if you wish

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]I still believe that we need to push for protection of the title Veterinary Nurse.[/quote]

I can see that would be nice in theory, but what does it gain? RCVS guidance already states:

19.8 Many veterinary practices employ staff who are not veterinary surgeons, veterinary nurses or student veterinary nurses. Regardless of any training or experience these staff members may have, in the context of the veterinary practice, such staff should be regarded as unqualified or laypeople. Their job titles should not be misleading and should reflect their demarcation from qualified members of staff. In particular, veterinary surgeons and veterinary nurses should not hold out a colleague as a ‘veterinary nurse’ unless that colleague is appropriately registered with the RCVS

So we could already be disciplined for using the title inappropriately.

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]It should be mandatory for practices to employ veterinary nurses.[/quote]

Again I see where you are going with that, but I don't think you've necessarily thought it through. Over the years I've worked in lots of practices without any VNs and animals have been looked after very well. It's been discussed on here ad nauseam recently that some practices use vets for bloods, cannulas etc. As a new grad I was glad of that experience and not having nurses was potentially an advantage to me building those skills.

There is a shortage of qualified nurses and some practices are crying out for them. What do you suggest they do if having at least 1 VN was mandatory? Do they have to close down because the nurse left? What if there's only one VN and she calls in sick one morning, what happens then? What about OOH, can the vet look at the puppy with D&V themself or does the nurse have to be there too? What about equine/farm/pig/poultry practices, do they all have to have a mandatory nurse?

I feel it's a brave thing to say on a nursing forum, but nurses can be used to great effect in veterinary practice, but their roles can be filled by lay staff and vets. I do believe in having qualified nurses and we are training our first, but we've done a bloody good job to this point and provided excellent care to our patients without one.

[quote user="Nick Shackleton"]Also I believe we need to be better at negotiating for better wages. So many nurses just accept what they are offered, I have been guilty of this in the past. Over the years I have learnt good negotiation skills and getting the package I want. [/quote]

You have a pretty unique skill-set and that is bound to attract a premium in terms of salary. The issue you seem to be glossing over is where does that extra money come from to pay nurses more? Just attaching certain fees to the nurse is missing the point somewhat.

[/quote]

in response. So they are still many people who are employed in veterinary practice using the veterinary nurse title, which to me is quite frankly unfair. We have put in all the hard work and effort to qualify and maintain our CPD and registration and be held accountable for our action. For example when I worked in the NHS I worked in radiography. I obtained a foundation degree. But as I never obtained a BSc in radiography I couldn’t call myself a radiographer, which is how it should be for nurses.

You wouldnt expect to be only treated by only healthcare assistants in hospital so why shouldnt animals get the same treatment. Are they not worthy of highly skilled nursing care.

As practices become come more and more advanced they also need to be investing in the staff as well. Yes I have rather unique qualifications/experience. But thats where things are lacking and that’s ultimately why nurses are wishing to leave there is a lack of career progression.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 13:02:29 GMT

Oh no But. As I am not scared of asking difficult questions and listening to the answer... then acting on any improvements required... Have *I* offended anybody??? If so - sorry. Not my intention at all. Wanted an open, fear-free, frank and all-encompassing discussion about this subject. Am happy to hear the 'gnarly bits' as well and any grumbles. It is difficult to talk with expression on a written forum so sometimes no one means to appear pompous or belittling but it can appear as that's the case. A healthy debate is what's needed and I hope to continue with it. So, Susie Susie please come back. Feel free (if you are still following this) to PM me and we can chat away from the madding crowd if you want to. Hope to hear from you (and if it was me that has upset you - fire away and scold!!!).

Ali h

xxxx

Happiness. Peace. Solidarity. Freedom of speech (except rude words - no, no, no - only acceptable in your own company and when you've dropped a hammer on your toe... ).

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 11:18:23 GMT

[quote user="Jill Macdonald"]

ARLO: "Above all else, do remember everyone that you're all in the same boat, with the same aims, so try not to take offence at differences in opinion as to how you get there!"

I think that should maybe read - 'so try not to be offensive'?[/quote]

Jill Macdonald Not really!! Well, both. I think there is just as much of a responsibility not to be offended as not to be offensive, if that makes sense.

Seriously, I didn't read anything here as being that offensive or negative in the first place, just differences of opinion. But it is so subjective, and I do understand how someone else could have read it differently to me!

Anyway, I've just got off the telephone to a well-known figure in the profession, outlining my plan for a major initiative to promote better use of veterinary nurses, so I'm really encouraged by:

[quote user="Jill Macdonald"]

c) For practices to make better (more profitable) use of nurses to reduce the amount of work done (at higher cost) by veterinary surgeons. I have no experience of the economics of veterinary practice, so I am not sure whether this idea could work.

Yes it does work[/quote]

cos I am relying on it!

[quote user="Jill Macdonald"]The ethos was that nurses were the core of the practice, and vets only did work that only vets can do.[/quote]

Love that.

[quote user="Jill Macdonald"]One of the fundamental 'attitudes' that needs to change is that of charging for nurses' time. Nurses should not be running consultations (clinics, clubs - whatever you want to call them) for nothing. [/quote]

Agree wholeheartedly.

Jill, I will post more details of the new initiative as soon as I have more. I'm really excited about it. I do hope we can get past a few unfortunate turns of phrase posted in this thread.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Jill Macdonald — Thu, 15 Feb 2018 10:49:17 GMT

ARLO: "Above all else, do remember everyone that you're all in the same boat, with the same aims, so try not to take offence at differences in opinion as to how you get there!"

I think that should maybe read - 'so try not to be offensive'?

Another member is clearly not comfortable with the way some of the comments have been 'aimed', and I also have felt that many comments on this thread have been - well - condescending at best. It feels very much as though some people feel that their opinion is of a higher order than others'. If people want to engage in discussion, then that's what it should be. There is no need or place to put others down. Arlo - you have just carried out a survey of bullying in the profession... I'm sure you identified the complexities of this. If someone left a discussion because I had made them feel this way, I would be mortified. I understand why Susie left, and I even hope she's not watching this thread and has just walked away from it.

As I said before, everyone has a valid contribution, and I don't disagree with a lot of what has been provided as 'solutions' - there's a lot of sensible stuff - but I do disagree with the way some people respond. It is partly the trouble with 'forums', and also I think anonymity plays a part. I think it would be more appropriate for members to have a clear identity, and put their name behind their contribution.

Arlo:

Yes it does work, and has done for some time for many practices, and it's exactly the point I made some posts back. Using nurses effectively is paramount. No, I don't just mean by 'saying the cannula has been put in by a nurse', although my point about making nurse 'charges' overt is also valid as helping clients understand the contribution that nurses have to practice is part of the bigger picture.

The practice that I mentioned before - 'nurses were utilised to their full potential in every sphere' - did just that. Vets performed surgery and veterinary consultations. Nurses did (and still do last time I checked) everything else, including POCs, follow-up consultations, 2nd vaccs, nurse 'clinics' (for animals that wouldn't otherwise be seen - ie novel), minor surgery, anaesthesia, radiography, etc etc. We had a 3 or 4:1 nurse to vet ratio. The ethos was that nurses were the core of the practice, and vets only did work that only vets can do. I am just using this as an example, and I'm sure there are now many more practices who are also following this approach.

They are going to have to if the post-Brexit picture is reality. http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/180/18/432

We had regular nurse and practice meetings, worked on protocols, approaches, practice direction, promotion. Looked at client feedback and acted upon it. Planned our training so that it met the demands we faced. By-the-by - we also utilised nursing assistants well and to their full potential, so that they also attained job satisfaction.

My belief in this above practice model is why I set up and run courses that aim to put nurses in a more active and contributory position - through running effective, chargeable clinics and consults, that promote healthcare and client service, and place nurses in a pivotal role in the practice. And yes, many of these are in creating services for clients that otherwise simply wouldn't be there - for example - ongoing, active senior pet monitoring, basic physiotherapy clinics, puppy socialisation classes, end-of-life care discussions (and many more). This also has an effect on nurse responsibility, satisfaction and therefore retention in the profession (going back to my other comment of 'There isn't a simple answer, it is multifaceted and will take lots of changes over a long period of time.')

I'm excited to be presenting on this very topic soon - although sadly that will be a one-way didactic situation. I am also leading a research project (with 30 panellists) to construct a VN communication/consultation matrix, that will offer nurses help and confidence with communication with clients, and enable them to apply structure to their consultations.

One of the fundamental 'attitudes' that needs to change is that of charging for nurses' time. Nurses should not be running consultations (clinics, clubs - whatever you want to call them) for nothing. That creates a strain on practice rather than a financial contribution (something that I bang on about a lot, but I'm not going to on this forum.)

And yes Arlo, there is a buyer. They buyer would be even more willing if the status and value of the veterinary nurse was improved. (Again - 'There isn't a simple answer, it is multifaceted and will take lots of changes over a long period of time.')

Frankie - nurse practitioners - have you taken a look at the VN Futures work? Yes, it's a complex area, but it's certainly one of the pathways that could potentially be followed in time.

Arlo - I'm not offended, I just don't want to engage any longer with the negativity I have felt from some members whilst following and contributing to this particular discussion, who clearly haven't 'thought through' what they are saying and how it affects others. From a business sense - there are more constructive/proactive ways I can (and must) use my time.

There have been some great ideas shared here, and if anyone wishes to contact me directly then please do so. I am always happy to engage in meaningful discussion on any nursing topic, and in working alongside those who also want to make a difference.

My email is jill@oncoreepd.co.uk and my number is 0121 663 1971

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Frankie Nancy — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:41:31 GMT

What about puppy/kitten behaviour/training consultations? This could be in a group or individual. First aid training courses run by VNs? or what about grooming appointments? I’m trying to think of things owners would pay for that nurses could do to bring more money into the practice. Any other ideas?

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 18:56:18 GMT

[quote user="Susie Susie"]I wont be posting in this thread any more.[/quote]

Oops - sorry - should have jumped in earlier.

Susie Susie, please do keep talking. I think it's really important to try not to take offence at other people's forums posts, because in a lot of cases, they didn't actually set out to cause offence.

Sure, it can be annoying as hell to be told something 'hasn't been thought through', or 'misses the point' - but try and look past that, because actually apache makes some very good points.

In fact, for me, with no axe to grind, apache hits the nail squarely on the head:

[quote user="apache"]You may think VNs are underpaid (and I agree with you), the issue seems to be that very few sensible solutions are being put forwards to address that. As it stands there is not the profit in veterinary practice to pay everyone more (I'd like to earn more and I'm sure my vets would), the only solution to this is additional, novel, chargeable work. Owners won't stand hike in fees.[/quote]

In other words, you can talk about protecting the title, or about further qualification, or about VNs being better recognised for what they do, and all sorts of other things which are laudable aims, but they don't change the hard economic truth that there just doesn't seem to be the money in the business to pay veterinary nurses more.

That leads me to think only one of three things need to happen:

Either:

a) As apache said: find additional, novel, chargeable work.

b) Employ less nurses but pay them more.

Everything else strikes me as likely to tinker at the edges.

Personally, I think the problem with a) is that it would take nurses off the job they are needed for. ahe problem with b) is whether it would lead to under-resourcing.

I really wonder about c), and whether that is where the opportunity lies. Feminisation of the veterinary profession (vets, I mean), many of whom want to work part time. If better use was made of veterinary nurses, could they take on more of the workload, so the practice could reduce the amount of vet hours they need, and thereby pay nurses more / be more profitable?

Above all else, do remember everyone that you're all in the same boat, with the same aims, so try not to take offence at differences in opinion as to how you get there!

I'd be really interested to know what anyone thinks of my thoughts above (you can be rude to me if you want, I won't be offended!).

In particular, do you think chargeable vet hours could be to some degree reduced / replaced by cheaper, chargeable vn hours. Or is that daft?

And can anyone think of a novel service that pet owner would want to pay for, that could be done by VNs without impinging too much on your other work, and which could pay for a salary increase?

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Samantha Bragg — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 17:56:19 GMT

Ditto!!!! :(

Vets cannot live without Veterinary Nurses!! i think we all should earn more money as we do more jobs than human nurses i believe...

Would love to earn more money...

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Frankie Nancy — Wed, 14 Feb 2018 16:46:48 GMT

susie. The point you made about nurse practitioners - I was thinking about this the other day. There are such things in the human world - advanced practitioners in various health care/nursing roles - they are more than a nurse but not quite a doctor. Could we have an equivalent in the veterinary world? Perhaps a vet nurse advanced practitioner - who can do vaccinations? small operations/ administering anaesthesia/ certain types of consultations?

this would obviously be a course that nurses would have to go on and may be years long but could it be what our profession needs?

I have been seen by the human nurse practitioner myself at my doctors and they prescribe medications. Could a vet nurse practitioner be a real help to the vets when they need heloneith vaccinations/prescribing meds/doing ops?

I know that this is probably a long way off and maybe would take years before anything like this could be considered but could this be something that could be brought in?

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 11 Feb 2018 16:47:20 GMT

[quote user="Susie Susie"]

When reading your comments, unfortunately I feel that talking/ discussing this issue with you is pointless

[/quote]

How is it pointless? Apache is commenting as an employer not an employee and I think their opinion is just as important/valid as yours - maybe more so in that it is employers who actually pay the wages. If you want to get the best from this job you work with employers - not against them

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Susie Susie — Sun, 11 Feb 2018 16:04:28 GMT

[quote user="apache"]How are you working the hourly rate out? If you have a 40 hour week then £20,000 (/52/40) = £9.62 per hour. Our nursing staff do 42.5 hour weeks so would only be on £9.05 per hour.[/quote]

The CVS job that I looked at were offering £20,000 for a 37.5 hour week contract. £10.25 per hour.

[quote user="apache"] Do we know if the CVS 'salary' figure includes such benefits so the take home pay is less?[/quote]

All companies have to offer their employees a workplace pension, I'm pretty sure they pay for CPD, although I don't know how much and similarly, I think some fees are paid but not sure what.

When reading your comments, unfortunately I feel that talking/ discussing this issue with you is pointless as you have done nothing but insult most of the posters on here. I don't know why you seem to think you have the authority to judge whether other people's opinions and ideas are 'sensible' or 'missing the point' or 'haven't thought it through', the point of a forum is for discussion. I'm sorry we don't all have the same opinions as you, but that's what makes the world such a diverse place. At least the rest of us have the decency to respect each others opinions/ ideas even if we don't necessarily agree or think it could work.

To anyone else still reading this, I am still very interested in hearing your thoughts and ideas on this topic (and anything else related to this it that has come up in the meantime) so please feel free to PM me. I feel that there is a lot more that we could discuss and ideas that we could bounce off each other. I wont be posting in this thread any more.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

apache — Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:03:07 GMT

[quote user="Susie Susie"]Apache, I'm afraid your calculations didn't really prove a thing. I did say that 'I' would like 'as close to' £27,500 as possible. In real life, I know that this wont happen! Also it's completely unfair and slightly ridiculous of anyone to assume all nurses would be increased to that salary regardless of qualification, experience or location. Finally, you'll notice I'd also stated that I think nurses should be on 'at least' £10 per hour newly qualified. I've now been told CVS are beginning to this, recently increasing the newly qualified salary to £20,000 which is £10.25 per hour.[/quote]

How are you working the hourly rate out? If you have a 40 hour week then £20,000 (/52/40) = £9.62 per hour. Our nursing staff do 42.5 hour weeks so would only be on £9.05 per hour.

I've said recently on another thread that we will start out nurse on £10/hour = £22,100 plus pension, CPD, professional memberships. Do we know if the CVS 'salary' figure includes such benefits so the take home pay is less?

Alison Clare Hickman you are absolutely on the right lines. I love you call to arms "What do you think you can do to start your own process in this way?" and yet no one can come up with anything!

[quote user="Jill Macdonald"]Someone saying 'they haven't thought it through' - sorry not sure who it was - made me chuckle a little - I have worked in this profession for 20 years and I have thought about and discussed, and even written about, this particular issue (and many of the related issues) a LOT, and I'd say everyone who has contributed to this discussion has too.[/quote]

That was me, and I think my point stands. You may think VNs are underpaid (and I agree with you), the issue seems to be that very few sensible solutions are being put forwards to address that. As it stands there is not the profit in veterinary practice to pay everyone more (I'd like to earn more and I'm sure my vets would), the only solution to this is additional, novel, chargeable work. Owners won't stand hike in fees.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Susie Susie — Sun, 11 Feb 2018 12:55:16 GMT

[quote user="Nick Shackleton ️‍"]

CVS have recently increased the salary of newly qualified nurses to 20k. And other nurses accordingly. Vets have also received a pay rise

[/quote]

That's fantastic news! It's definitely the direction we want to be going in. If CVS put the salary up for nurses, other practices should be forced to match it otherwise they'll start losing staff! I know for a fact that I'll now be able to approach my employer and ask for a pay rise while pointing out CVS's increase. I'd like to know what their head nurses are paid. Just to have an idea of what you could work your way up to. I saw one job with CVS where the deputy head nurse gets £24,000. Is that good enough? I'm not sure. £12.30/hr.

I apologise, I don't know how to tag people in this forum.

Sal the 1st and Apache I'm afraid in your hasty replies to my previous post you both appeared to misread/ misunderstand what I said. Sal the 1st, you quoted my comment that said increase nurses, reduce vets OR decrease nurses, increase ACA's/ VCA's then went on to comment on the lack of nurses. My 'increase nurses' idea was one of two suggestions. However in answer to your question of where the nurses will come from when nurses are leaving and unis are churning out vets; Well unis AND colleges are churning out nurses every year, plus, if we manage to fix the problem of terrible nurse wages, nurses may stay in the profession or even return!

Apache, I'm afraid your calculations didn't really prove a thing. I did say that 'I' would like 'as close to' £27,500 as possible. In real life, I know that this wont happen! Also it's completely unfair and slightly ridiculous of anyone to assume all nurses would be increased to that salary regardless of qualification, experience or location. Finally, you'll notice I'd also stated that I think nurses should be on 'at least' £10 per hour newly qualified. I've now been told CVS are beginning to this, recently increasing the newly qualified salary to £20,000 which is £10.25 per hour. I think this is a great start! I certainly, however, think head nurses should be paid close to or over £27,500. I hope this clarifies things for you.

Jill Macdonald, thank you for that last post, I agree with you whole heartedly that EVERY contribution to this forum has been valuable. It's nice to know that such a significant amount of nurses feel that passionately about it to come up with so many ideas and suggestions. It's only by discussing these things in a mostly supportive and encouraging environment such as this that we can collectively come up with practical ideas to make positive changes.

Ali H, I feel a revolution coming! My main concern is that in my training and my working life, I still haven't come across a practice that I'm happy with. I don't feel that I have enough experience or knowledge to necessarily make suggestions for changes in the business strategy; all I know is what they're doing isn't working! Unfortunately, quite often the issues that I've mostly come across is awful management! Whether it be the owner with obviously no business or personnel skills (the most common scenario in my experience), a completely unprofessional practice manager, an overbearing head nurse or a combination of the above, I feel like I'm going to be pinballing from practice to practice until I find one that I feel comfortable at! From my pwn personal point of view and why I brought this topic up in the first place is that I've experienced such bad business and practice in my very limited experience in this industry, are we paid enough to put up with it?! I am so so ready to give my all to a good practice that treats their staff well and respects them enough to pay them a decent wage and utilise all their skills but I'm finding the more awful practices I work at, the more I'm wondering if I'm fighting a losing battle. Have I just been unlucky to have only had bad experiences like this in the 7/8 practices that I've trained/ worked in? Or is this a fair representation of what the industry is generally like? Either way I'm going to keep plodding along for the time being and continue my search for that elusive practice where I belong.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Nick Shackleton — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 17:34:08 GMT

CVS have recently increased the salary of newly qualified nurses to 20k. And other nurses accordingly. Vets have also received a pay rise

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Jill Macdonald — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 11:08:22 GMT

Everyone has a valuable contribution to this discussion, and the time people have taken to respond demonstrates the level of interest and commitment to change. No-one has the 'best' answer, and in my mind nobody has said anything that isn't valid or worth considering.

I would love to go through and reply to everyone, as there's some wonderful things to pick up on in this thread, but I just don't have the time right now!

There isn't a simple answer, it is multifaceted and will take lots of changes over a long period of time.

Whilst there are obviously financial considerations that are part of this complex argument, there are also fundamental principles attached to nurses and their value, (also linked with client awareness) how practices function, how they utilise their nurses, and as just mentioned, business management aspects too.

The rise of corporates also plays a big part in the complete equation.

Someone saying 'they haven't thought it through' - sorry not sure who it was - made me chuckle a little - I have worked in this profession for 20 years and I have thought about and discussed, and even written about, this particular issue (and many of the related issues) a LOT, and I'd say everyone who has contributed to this discussion has too.

I worked, some years ago, in a very progressive practice - nurses were utilised to their full potential in every sphere, nursing time was charged appropriately, clients received an excellent service, (and paid well for it), the practice did very well because of it, and nurses were fairly remunerated. A simple take.

Someone mentioned about nurses jumping ship - and why is that? Well exactly all the things we are discussing. It is not just about salary. There are many other factors that keep nurses in the profession - and conversely, make them leave.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 10:43:58 GMT

Susie Susie 2005nurse Frankie Nancy Kirsty RVN Tania Ford Paris M Sal the 1st Victoria Stearman Selena Carnell Leigh Hinsley Nick Shackleton Jill Macdonald Arlo Guthrie apache Bouteloua and Sidonia (can't tag you for some reason!)

So - let's get to the stuff we can do to get to where we want be.

For example: start a more collaborative working with our fellow veterinary professionals by working as business partners? Do what the practice needs to thrive. Don't get taken for a ride and value your self/services but by the same token realise that you (should) only get out what you can put in.

What do you think you can do to start your own process in this way? Let's get that discussion going! Ideas please! These ideas can be our 'action plan' to improve our lot, starting today!

Sure, there are practices out there that don't have a clue about effective business management let alone human resources management - If you can - assist with this. If you can't or don't want to - move onto a practice that does perform well and sees you as a valuable resource and allows you to think, grow and contribute.

I know from my own experience that by working for practices that set this example, it sets an example to those that do not i.e. who gets to actually employ AND KEEP their RVN's...

It's a long-term plan. Don't expect quick results. You have to work at it. You need to make the difference for yourself. Eventually, by slow accumulation of each nurses' endeavours (with the vets hand in hand with her/him), each nurse contributing to the collective whole will make a big difference to the way nurses are utilised in practice. Lead by example!

Sadly, don't think for one minute it's anybody else's job to make your own career more fulfilling. Nothing will be handed to you on a plate. Change what you can yourself, move on if you cannot.

Think how hard you worked to gain your qualifications and take this as your yardstick for how hard you need to work to make a business a success to create a welcoming environment for your own aspirations (practices are businesses).

Bit of a sermon - no apologies.

Peace. Solidarity. Let's do this.

Ali h

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

apache — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 01:04:57 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]did you see value in my suggestions apache???[/quote]

I missed your post at the bottom of the page. I do think you have the best suggestions yet. Protecting titles and billing the cannula put in BY A NURSE has much less 'value' to the client than your suggestions.

I think it really is going to be about maximising what nurses can do and that does (or should) bring additional revenue to the practice. It should also mean better care for the animals that need it. If we drop into management speak it generates footfall and gets people back into the practice. I'm already thinking for when our SVN is qualified about the concept of 'clubs' where people pay a small monthly fee for things like weight monitoring/arthritis/geriatric/thyroid/diabetic monitoring with a VN etc. I can already see merit in the VN taking on suture removal, simple post op checks, nail clips, EAG, tick removal etc.

I think the nature of the job is that the VN is in a supportive role to the vet, but I think some of that support can be between pet owner and VN. If that can be provided cheaper than vet time then that is a positive thing for the owner and revenue you are generating as a nurse. We're a mixed practice so we're looking for opportunities with the farm animals too.

RE: Why isn't anyone doing anything about our terrible wages?

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 07 Feb 2018 00:30:36 GMT

did you see value in my suggestions apache???