How do we champion veterinary science?

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Sal the 1st — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 19:58:13 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

My impression is that a lot of people within the veterinary profession don't always think the benefits justify the increased cost, so it's not just pet owners that need convincing!

Problem also is that I doubt there is much of a medical benefit for vet-licensed versions of generics. Sure, they've been tested for the condition / species, but I am not aware of any evidence of that leading to a better end result.

[/quote]

yep and I'm one of them. Vet licensed over generic - the only benefit I can see is to the company who licensed it, certainly doesn't benefit the vet, the client or the animal when somebody comes along and says -look at us aren't we clever we have licensed potassium bromide so now you have to use ours only and pay through the nose for it, same with prednisolone, metronidazole and a load of others I could mention. Are any of these companies really animal friendly? when to license their product it often means duplicating lab testing with the associated cost in animal lives just so somebody can stick a new name on something already in use.

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Robyn — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 12:32:58 GMT

Perhaps an explanation of the cascade and why we're so legally bound by it? I suppose you could also go into the specific pet/veterinary medicine trials as opposed to 'we've been using this for years but we've never done any safety testing, good luck'?

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 11:56:09 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]anyone else got ideas for evidence-based arguments for vet-licensed over generics?[/quote]

An image of a VS chained and shackled to the Cascade?

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 09:33:25 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]owners have googled symptoms and on the basis of what they have read, make their own diagnosis (admittedly a couple of times they have in fact been right) and come into the practice asking for a written script to buy drugs online because they already know what is wrong with their (dog, cat, other) and they don't need to see a vet.[/quote]

Hmm - what I have in mind is communications based on publicly available, robust evidence.

In other words, for a given challenge, I need to be able to produce an evidence-based argument.

So I am just trying to think what the evidence-based counter to this is. In other words, a reason why owners should not just trust to dr google and ask for a script.

What would be REALLY nice here is some research into the number of times a client who came into practice with their own diagnosis was wrong (or not right enough). But that won't exist.

The only other thing I can think of is a study/survey of online veterinary information resources (forums etc) for pet owners to see how many of them contain wrong information.

I do think it would be a lovely piece of research, to find out how many times pet owners wrongly diagnose their own animals!

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]or the clients that ask for generics because they are cheaper and think you are ripping them off because we have to use veterinary licensed under cascade. I think if clients understood just why their pets drugs are so expensive it could help a lot[/quote]

This one seems trickier to me!

Trying to think of the evidence-based argument for generics vs veterinary licensed. ie what is the evidence of a benefit of a vet licensed drug over an identical, but generic version.

My impression is that a lot of people within the veterinary profession don't always think the benefits justify the increased cost, so it's not just pet owners that need convincing!

Strikes me that the main two benefits of vet-licensed are really 'better support' (but what does this really mean) and 'more confidence it will perform as expected' (but when we are talking about a human drug that has been used confidently in animals for years, that's weak).

I dunno, anyone else got ideas for evidence-based arguments for vet-licensed over generics?

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 19:05:48 GMT

can I add to your list Arlo? this one has cropped up quite a few times recently

owners have googled symptoms and on the basis of what they have read, make their own diagnosis (admittedly a couple of times they have in fact been right) and come into the practice asking for a written script to buy drugs online because they already know what is wrong with their (dog, cat, other) and they don't need to see a vet.

or the clients that ask for generics because they are cheaper and think you are ripping them off because we have to use veterinary licensed under cascade. I think if clients understood just why their pets drugs are so expensive it could help a lot

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 12:29:19 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Not a rant. Not a preach. Logic, reason and backed up by evidence based medicine.[/quote]

Exactly, and I would say also important that it is open about the weaknesses in science too. In other words, not to present it as though it is absolutely right in every case, but to explain where evidence is weak. Be balanced.

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:30:51 GMT

Arlo Guthrie

It really depends on the client, in my experience. Driven by personality, expectation and budget.

From those that would like to take your advice but cannot afford it and look for cheaper 'off-prescription' products on the internet or pet shop;

To those that have done 'research' on the internet (or asked the butcher, baker, candle-stick maker or breeder) and query everything you advise (can be overcome, as per Sal the 1st evidences, with patience and logic);

To those who want to try 'eco-friendly or 'natural' options, non-medically-based options or alternative medicine/treatments

To the "How much-ers??!!" and "Too much trouble-ers" and "Quick-Fix-expectors"

So, in summary - all that you detail.

In my view, no one hat fits all circumstances so to get 'the message' successfully out there you really need to target different groups with a message that they are likely to listen to (presses the right buttons for them). Should be the same core message, just worded in a sympathetic way to the listeners ear to fully engage them. Not a rant. Not a preach. Logic, reason and backed up by evidence based medicine.

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 09:00:29 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]This bit is really the most important for me.[/quote]

So what are the most commonly raised concerns / misunderstandings are raised by clients in practice?

For example (and don't read these too literally, I'm trying to illustrate a mindset):

'All drugs have evil side-effects'
'Vaccination is dangerous / you're all out to over-vaccinate to make money etc.'
'All commercial pet food causes diseases / you're selling it to line your pockets (by treating the resultant disease)'
'Medical research is all false / drug companies are the spawn of the devil'
'Homeopathy / crystal waving / chanting cures everything, including cancer'
'Vets are raking it in at our (pet owners') expense'

Which of these is the most common, and are there any others?

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Sal the 1st — Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:31:06 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

First step would be to check everyone in the practice is on board with what it says, inc the receptionists, and ready to answer clients in a consistent way.

[/quote]

This bit is really the most important for me. I sometimes find this difficult with different interpretations of our house rules. Not quite the same but we have a rule that owners needing long term meds order them at least 24 hours in advance, if it is within their allowed repeats, so it really pees me off when I have told somebody they cannot have their meds the same day because to do so would leave us without any on the shelves, and I'm not being mean if they are out of meds I will allow enough to tide them over till I can get more. Then they ring and speak to somebody else (who happens to be their friend) and gets the meds dispensed within the hour leaving us with no stock to dispense to the animal that has come through surgery and urgently needs it. Its like banging your head against a very solid wall some days.

The other thing I would point out is never, ever call it 'quack' medicine to the client (whatever you personal beliefs) it puts their backs up and makes it so much harder to convince them of anything after that.

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 21 Jan 2018 12:08:43 GMT

[quote user="PHA86"]I have even worked in a practice where the receptionists were discussing how they only allow their pets to have a primary course because they didn’t want to over vaccinate![/quote]

Interesting and has given me an idea. I was thinking about producing some very generic videos for the public which show the evidence for various things (like vaccination, medicines in general / side-effects and quack medicine in a nice, easy, digestible way.

But perhaps the first stage might be to prepare info for practices, outlining the main arguments pet owners put forward for these kinds of things and giving the evidence-based answers.

First step would be to check everyone in the practice is on board with what it says, inc the receptionists, and ready to answer clients in a consistent way.

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 20 Jan 2018 13:48:34 GMT

I think a large number of the problems I encounter on a daily basis come directly through mis -information and its such a struggle sometimes. I had one a few weeks ago, I did manage to win them round eventually (or at least engage them long enough for them to realise there was another version to the 'what the breeder said')

new puppy - breeder said lepto vaccines kill dogs, flip side is in Lincolnshire lots of waterways = lots of rats =real risk of lepto. breeder said no need for vaccine just do a titre (on an unvaccinated 8w pup ) . Wasn't sure if it was the breeder that misunderstood what titre testing was but the new owner really didn't understand what titres were and thought it was a sort of 'alternative' vaccination. After a chat, and giving her some more information that I then invited her to google for herself, just in case she doubted me, the puppy has now had its primary course of vaccinations and the client I feel is now better informed to make her own decisions - and possibly might even accept our advice to be good on other matters in the future? I didn't bully, threaten or scare her into having vaccinations I just presented information she didn't have or didn't quite understand and let her make her own mind up

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

jojofruits — Sat, 20 Jan 2018 11:18:56 GMT

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

jojofruits — Sat, 20 Jan 2018 11:18:09 GMT

Its an absolute nightmare.

I have Chihuahuas ( believe it or not - and yes, they are awesome) .. anyway I joined a Chihuahua group on facebook and eventually had to leave when I was getting so wound up by the advice given by idiots ( vegetable oil in the eye for a runny eye anyone?!

Those groups that I belong to who have veterinary staff as admin tend to be miles better and with sound advice... the problem is that the general public don't really know the difference.

Old school breeders are the veterinary profession's worst nightmare ( "after 20 years of breeding dogs I think I know what i'm doing!" .. yes of course.. that's why we have so many breed related problems you IDIOT!)

SO getting kennel club etc more on board with vets and not breeders, and all sending out a multi modal message should eventually get through... but you will always have the " flat earthers"

I think as practices we ned to have our own strong social media presence, make it FUN and also informative, so that the first place people go is to us.

RE: How do we champion veterinary science?

PHA86 — Sat, 20 Jan 2018 10:43:47 GMT

I have even worked in a practice where the receptionists were discussing how they only allow their pets to have a primary course because they didn’t want to over vaccinate!