Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 18:27:10 GMT

[quote user="Tania Ford"]

Early days Arlo, but from some recent job adverts, it looks as though it may be working

Well done you!

[/quote]

Thanks Tania, as you say, early days, but I'm really pleased that some are starting to do this already. This practice even contacted me to update their advert with a salary range:

https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/veterinary-jobs/permanent-registered-veterinary-nurse-paisley-9147/

Two things that stand out to me at this stage:

Firstly the list view of jobs, with new salary and benefits info, starts to look like a marketplace even if not everyone displays their offer.

Second, pleased to see that even some practices which are not displaying salary, ARE choosing to display benefits. I think you can probably take it as a good sign if a practice is offering a range of benefits, even if they don't display the salary.

The other interesting thing is that if enough people use the feature and we start getting useful data, we can aggregate it to produce real time info into salaries by region for example - useful both for employers and employees.

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Tania Ford — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 16:31:16 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Points to note: Where it says: "Min Offered" that will be a single figure. Or it will show "Pay Range". Advertisers will be able to select and display additional benefits as shown from a drop down list provided.[/quote]

Early days Arlo, but from some recent job adverts, it looks as though it may be working

Well done you!

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 15:10:44 GMT

[quote user="Pete Vernon"]Well, that was frustrating - I was typing my reply hours ago and the site went down in mid-reply![/quote]

Pete Vernon Sorry about that - we had a couple of little glitches to iron out ...

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Pete Vernon — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 15:00:16 GMT

Well, that was frustrating - I was typing my reply hours ago and the site went down in mid-reply! Anyway, yes, friends, of course Alison! It's always difficult to pick up on tone through emails, texts etc and I realised you weren't being rude, and nor was I. We all have a POV and we're all entitled to that. No harm done, no offence intended, nor taken. All the best

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 12:04:39 GMT

Pete Vernon - okay, admonishment accepted.... Not influence but advise? I wasn't being rude or cheeky... I work with a recruitment agency, (as a Blogger), so I understand your POV.... Friends?!

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Pete Vernon — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 11:07:03 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]As a recruiter Pete Vernon your view is of course skewed towards how you can influence both employer and job seeker; so I do understand where you are coming from.[/quote]

Please don't tarnish all recruiters with the same brush Alison. I don't influence and as I explain to all of my candidates, at the end of the day if it's not the right job for them, talking them into it or attempting to "influence" them, would be pointless as it all ends badly for everyone concerned (even us agents!). Frankly, I give my candidates the credit that they are intelligent enough and can make their own decisions and can't be influenced that easily anyway. That goes for practices too. Recruitment agencies have been in existence for over a hundred years and the good ones survive through good practice, professionalism and strong partnerships with their clients and candidates. Feel free to check out the testimonials on my website from both candidates and practices. Like I said...we're not all the same!

Just sayin' :)

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 09:01:02 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Put that in the ad [/quote]

zigactly.

[quote user="Pete Vernon"]Just to play devil's advocate[/quote]

Pete, I'm not sure you were (playing devil's advocate) - as I mentioned those points in the news story!

The point about the way we've described pay/salary in VetNurse Jobs is that it is designed to represent the best compromise between giving the jobseeker something to go on, and allowing the practice some wriggle room:

Min offer. The important word here is 'Min' - just a starting point for negotiation, which we explain to jobseekers that the employer may be prepared to offer more. So that could be set at whatever level the practice is paying other staff with the same skills and experience.

Pay range

We also explain that advertisers may employ someone with a lower level of experience for an amount less than the min offer.

So really, these numbers are not cast in stone, they just give the candidate something to go on.

[quote user="Pete Vernon"]I think there's an argument for advertising what a salary is, but there are arguments against it too[/quote]

I think the biggest arguments for doing it are that a) research shows it gets a better response if you do, and b) it sets everyone's expectations correctly, thereby saving time and company reputation (it does a practice no favours to invite someone for an interview after advertising a 'competitive salary' if the applicant subsequently finds it is not).

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 19 Jan 2018 08:40:15 GMT

[quote user="Pete Vernon"]many are open to negotiate [/quote]

Well then. Put that in the ad (happens already but without the ££££ figures). For example - min £13,000 (negotiable on experience) or range £17000 - £19000 (neg...) and so on.

There's nothing wrong with that IMO; it enables the employer to show a salary that is commensurate with the existing team (and not p*ss them off [too much])... I would still rather the employer be transparent in an advert about the salary upper limit but I do realise that the economics of Demand & Supply and, cough cough, Skulduggery are working here...

As a recruiter Pete Vernon your view is of course skewed towards how you can influence both employer and job seeker; so I do understand where you are coming from. Nevertheless, surely it would mostly make YOUR job easier too if the employer was transparent about salary/benefits?! You no doubt provide invaluable assistance for your candidate in acting as middle-man negotiator, facilitator and mediator...

Just sayin' ...

Peace.

Ali h

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Pete Vernon — Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:38:14 GMT

Hi Arlo

Just to play devil's advocate - I think practices use the "competitive" type salary indicator because many are open to negotiate and they don't want to rule out a candidate by putting a figure or even a range. The veterinary recruitment market has always been candidate lead but this last 12 months or so has become even more competitive and practices are starting to realise that they're having to offer more money to attract the best talent. If they put "x" salary, there is a danger they'd be ruling out people from applying as well as ruling some in.

Meanwhile, practices run the risk of upsetting existing staff members on "x" salary by recruiting someone new with similar or sometimes less experience and offering a higher salary (in order to get them through the door). It s a difficult balancing act!

As an indepedent agency, most of my clients will usually say the salary is dependant on experience level and they might consider it competitive. When a candidate applies to one of my jobs and I put them forward for it, I ALWAYS tell the practice what the candidates' salary expectation is and if there's an issue with it, I report it back to the nurse or vet, we have a chat about it, and decide what they want to do.

I think there's an argument for advertising what a salary is, but there are arguments against it too

Happy Thursday! :)

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 18 Jan 2018 10:47:29 GMT

And our very first jobs advertised with salaries, displayed both in the job list: https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/veterinary-jobs/

and in the adverts themselves:https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/veterinary-jobs/contract-other-cannington-9247/

Any and all feedback would be much appreciated. You like it? Any issues with layout etc?

We've had one advertising just benefits, and a couple advertising just salaries. Now we just need one advertising salary and benefits to complete the set

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 20:22:56 GMT

here we go - a news story about it ...

https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2018/01/17/vetnurse-jobs-brings-transparency-to-vn-salaries.aspx

Hope everyone approves

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 19:49:40 GMT

Arlo Guthrie yes, a great start indeed. They still say "competitive" salary... Boo. Rest of it sounds great though!

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 18:06:33 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Let's see how the ads go!! [/quote]

Well, we have our first since the update. No salary displayed, but they have used the benefits, which are highlighted on the main list and in the advert itself.

It's a start!

PS I'm really excited about this. VetNurse is one of the leading source of jobs for veterinary nurses, so I think us making this change could make a real difference.

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 17:57:16 GMT

Arlo Guthrie

The Enhanced Sick Pay Leave is a life saver for many - just read what our latest Cry For Help post says about not being able to take enough time off to recover (mental health) due to lack of pay in this respect. Damaging for both parties 1. The nurse who cannot function anymore and loses their job and 2. The practice who cannot support a team member and loses the chance to regain a valuable and qualified RVN...

I know the workplace cannot support an ill colleague indefinitely but for a reasonable period, it makes sense.

Let's see how the ads go!!

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 17 Jan 2018 16:53:02 GMT

So ...

drumroll ....

We've just updated the job section with the ability for advertisers to display salaries and benefits.

Alison Clare Hickman yes, enhanced paid sick leave is on the list :) (along with RCVS fees, subs, etc etc).

As I said earlier on, it is optional, and we shall have to see how many people decide to use this option.

BUT, if nothing else, hopefully it will get advertisers thinking more about the subject. That's the starting point.

(and I will be making a song and dance about it in the news / by email etc).

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Nick Shackleton — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 11:55:02 GMT

So I work for a large coperate company and they have just announced that they plan to increase the minimum wage of RVNs both current and prespective employee to 20k which I think is a great step in the right direction

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Alison Clare Hickman — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 10:43:07 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Do you think that in some cases practices not wanting to declare salary range on job ads might have anything to do with them not wanting to hack off their existing staff by admitting they will have to be paying more to entice the next incumbant than they are paying everybody else?[/quote]

Definitely and also that they want or need to show a wider picture of themselves than an ad will allow; in the hope that a low salary will be offset by what else is on offer. It CAN work occasionally - I've done it for experience rather than salary but that was what I was looking for as (at the time, luckily for me), salary didn't matter; but I think I am (as I was then) in the minority!

How do I feel about the inequalities of hiring new staff with less or equivalent experience and qualifications as incumbents but on a higher salary/benefits? Frankly unjust but I would admire the person for haggling successfully and be p*ssed off with the employer for not recognising my talent in the same way. It would spur me on to do my own haggling. And, Don't for one minute think that employees don't find out what their peers are earning. We do. It happens. It can cause a stink. I would use the information to make positive changes for myself rather than be negative and just shout "Unfair" (albeit unfair, as I have detailed in previous posts!). My philosophy is always turn a negative into a positive whenever I can...

It is different negotiating a higher rate than a permanent staff member earns as a locum as the locum has no permanency (amongst other risks or lack of benefits) so the higher rate is fair in compensation, in my view.

Ali h

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Sal the 1st — Sun, 14 Jan 2018 03:29:22 GMT

Do you think that in some cases practices not wanting to declare salary range on job ads might have anything to do with them not wanting to hack off their existing staff by admitting they will have to be paying more to entice the next incumbant than they are paying everybody else?

I don't think its unreasonable to ask up front - after all if somebody wants to know all about what I have to offer them in advance of an interview isnt it fair that I get to find out what they have to offer me?

I recall attending an interview for a trainee conveyancers assistant with a local legal firm some years ago - wage was advertised as 'in excess of role standard' sounds good I thought - nope it was a few pence an hour above minimum wage, reviewed after 6 months

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 13 Jan 2018 23:17:29 GMT

Bekki2511

I would defo ask upfront! If they can't or won't tell you, you've gotta wonder why (and not in a good way). Clarity, transparency, truth, respect and professionalism is a two-way street.

I have fallen for the "we will discuss this at interview" (with absolutely no clue given even to a minimum or range beforehand) only to discover what is being offered is way out of kilter to my expectations. Why do this to people? Rant over!

ali h

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Bekki2511 — Sat, 13 Jan 2018 22:01:56 GMT

Sorry to jump in here - do you think it's acceptable to ask them what the salary range is before applying, would they be likely to tell you? It would save the hassle of applying then finding out it's worse than what you're already on.

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Leigh Hinsley RVN NCert(BDev) MBVNA — Sat, 13 Jan 2018 08:50:26 GMT

I know what you mean! I had to fight a little bit with our HR department to include the starting salary in a job advertisement for an RVN (starting salary of £20k for a newly qualified by the way so nothing to be ashamed of!) They said they'd prefer to run the advert without salary and see how it goes before including the information

I really put my foot down and said its a very appealing salary for a new RVN (I remember being offered £16k as a 5 year qualified and they seemed shocked I turned it down?!) and it helps set applicants expectations to decide whether they want to apply to or not - saving both the applicant and myself time and effort!

Well done Arlo for all your efforts to improve the advertising of jobs!

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:51:53 GMT

Please do engage your chopper Arlo Guthrie

Ooh Matron... hahaha

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:36:03 GMT

could I chop 'allowance' off the end (just for space)?

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:28:40 GMT

Arlo Guthrie

Simples... Enhanced Paid Sick Leave Allowance

RE: Competitive and highly competitive salaries???

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 Jan 2018 18:21:52 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]I get about vets seekng non financial benefits but for nurses whom are paid significantly less, financial benefits are highly sought after![/quote]

good point.

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Cannot highlight just how useful they are to both employer and employer. If needed, work gets done asap and no waiting, suffering or extended sick leave waiting for the NHS to do their stuff etc. [/quote]

likewise

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]and SSP is not enough to live on.[/quote]

OK - so I wonder how I would describe, in one or two words, something more than SSP??!