Displaying salaries in job adverts

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 18:29:13 GMT

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]I think benefits ought to be detailed separate[/quote]

[quote user="JaneRVN"]As for benefits, Again, in every other industry a salary range and a breakdown of benefits package[/quote]

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Arlo Guthrie agree benefits separate.[/quote]

Separate it is, then!

Same goes for range ...

Thank you so much, everyone

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

JaneRVN — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 07:25:04 GMT

Thanks Alison and Ben, yes, salary and benefits are separate. I’ve got a blog coming out on this soon as what is a benefit to you may be of no use to others - exactly like the cycle to work Scheme. Heavily promoted in London but little use if you commute and hour by train!

so Yes to a salary range, yes to a list of benefits and YES to people actually putting the location of the Practice in the advert. If I have to google where you are them in not applying.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 11 Dec 2017 17:26:51 GMT

Arlo Guthrie agree benefits separate. I can self calculate the £ value of benefits so it would be useful to know what they are. If any are not for me, e.g. Accommodation, medical insurance... Then I could counter offer or disregard the role.

I would still prefer to see a salary range statement. Specifically because if the upper limit equals what the practice will pay for their most experienced/qualified/preferred applicant and this upper limit is still considerably less than my minimum (including benefits value) I won't waste their time, nor mine, by applying. I understand the economics of a business and do not criticise anyone for where they set their nurse salary limits. It is a simple case of knowing my own value, own living expenses and what is a sensible income for *me* to achieve. If I can sort out the wheat from the chaff more readily when searching for a job, I will be a very happy bunny.

hth

Ali h

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

JaneRVN — Mon, 11 Dec 2017 17:25:44 GMT

Thanks Ali!

No, no typo. employers will wish to keep salaries low, this is the battle we face.

When showing a salary range is standard in every other industry why not introduce it here? Many vet employers already offer it - corporates, charities, large vet groups, vet schools. So won’t be an issue for the majority that advertise with you.

If a job advert needs an explanation longer than the advert itself I’m not going to read it and I suspect most others will scroll by too.

As for benefits, Again, in every other industry a salary range and a breakdown of benefits package

- holiday

- sick pay

- pet care

- CPD

- pension

is the norm. so why not give people a template to fill in that shows if they leave it blank? They’ll soon see that people respond to and get employed those that offer a comprehensive package of fair salary and some of not all benefits.

My invoice for employment advice is in the post.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Ben Ogden — Mon, 11 Dec 2017 17:25:25 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="JaneRVN"]I would worry that putting a base salary will lead to employers believing thats the salary offered and many vet nurses say they don't want to/don't feel able to put an argument forward for a higher salary thus leading to lower pay.[/quote]

Hmm - presuming there's a typo/autocorrect there, and it should read "will lead to employees believing that is the salary offered".

JaneRVN - not sure about that, though. I think it comes down to how well explained it is. I was thinking something along the lines of:

Minimum offer
The minimum offer is what it says, the minimum that the employer expects to pay for someone with the minimum experience and qualifications for the job, including benefits such as car, accommodation and pension. The advertiser may be prepared to offer more, or they may not!

Although some discussion about whether it should or should not include the other benefits (as someone else has pointed out, employers might overvalue the additional benefits, whereas the salary figure is less ambiguous.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't know, but I wonder if placing an upper limit (ie a range) might also be restrictive.

I think I need to take a 'suck it and see' approach, and it would be quite easy to introduce a 'Min offer' to start with, and then add 'max offer' (ie range) later, if that proves necessary.

It would be quite an easy thing to do. Actually, come to think of it, I could build it in now, so we could switch to a range at the press of a button.

I think more important at this stage (from a programmatic perspective) is to decide how additional benefits are treated. If I switch on 'Min offer' and tell advertisers to include benefits in the displayed number, their numbers would all be wrong if I later changed the system so that the salary figure did NOT include benefits.

On that score, I think on reflection the min offer figure should EXCLUDE additional benefits, which could be detailed separately.

What do you think?

[/quote]

I think benefits ought to be detailed separate, benefits are subjective and what is a benefit to one person could not be viewed the same to another. For example a Christmas Bonus may be a perk for some, for me though, I'd rather you just pay me fair. A cycle to work scheme may be a benefit to some, but if you live 10 minute walk away (or 60min drive) it may not be a benefit.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 11 Dec 2017 12:44:11 GMT

Hmm - presuming there's a typo/autocorrect there, and it should read "will lead to employees believing that is the salary offered".

JaneRVN - not sure about that, though. I think it comes down to how well explained it is. I was thinking something along the lines of:

I'm not saying you're wrong. I don't know, but I wonder if placing an upper limit (ie a range) might also be restrictive.

I think I need to take a 'suck it and see' approach, and it would be quite easy to introduce a 'Min offer' to start with, and then add 'max offer' (ie range) later, if that proves necessary.

It would be quite an easy thing to do. Actually, come to think of it, I could build it in now, so we could switch to a range at the press of a button.

On that score, I think on reflection the min offer figure should EXCLUDE additional benefits, which could be detailed separately.

What do you think?

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 11 Dec 2017 09:34:45 GMT

Salary range seconded

JaneRVN

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Sal the 1st — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:27:06 GMT

[quote user="karen esquilant"]

As for the whole friendly team, cake & meals out & things like that! Isn't that a given!

[/quote]

I wish !

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

JaneRVN — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:29:06 GMT

The blog that I wrote on this last year got a lot of attention and there has been an improvement in adverts in the Vet Times since then, which is a start.

https://www.vettimes.co.uk/how-to-find-a-veterinary-nurse/

I would worry that putting a base salary will lead to employers believing thats the salary offered and many vet nurses say they don't want to/don't feel able to put an argument forward for a higher salary thus leading to lower pay.

I've written about the lack of financial information regarding the income generated by nurses:

https://www.vettimes.co.uk/role-recognition-credit-where-credits-due/

I've also written about vet nurses being hidden financially in The Veterinary Nurse Journal:

http://www.theveterinarynurse.com/cgi-bin/go.pl/library/article.cgi?uid=108543;article=_8_7_403_407

Part Two is in print this month and online after Christmas.

It may give ideas about how to approach salary negotiations and what your current practice could do to try and keep you and increase your salary.

I think instead of a base salary a range of what is available is offered. Gives you the space to negotiate and know you aren't pricing yourself out of the market. Its standard in almost every other industry to do this.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Paris M — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:33:26 GMT

I think this is a much needed feature in job adverts in the veterinary profession. Salary is a highly important factor when considering a position and is one of the first things I ask for clarification on before I even consider applying for a position. I do not show any interest in job adverts that just state Competitive salary as this implies to me that the employer is likely to try and pay me as little as possible, but too embarrassed to say that they want a RVN for a poor wage. I have found this out through personal experience unfortunately. Its not a good impression towards me as a candidate, when you complete an interview and a trial day, offered a position and salary that is way lower than what I consider competitive.

I think the base salary field is a good idea. It will be good feedback for employers offering a low salary when they don't get any applicants.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

karen esquilant — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:38:58 GMT

Agreed salary is an important factor, even just a salary range to give some sort of clue would be great, especially if you are looking in a different region salary varies so much! So many adverts which would be of interest but display no salary so I don't even consider them! A waste of my time & theirs if the salary range isn't right & seems inappropriate to contact them straight off & ask what the pay range is.

As for the whole friendly team, cake & meals out & things like that! Isn't that a given! cake doesn't pay the bills!

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Alison Clare Hickman — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 10:19:29 GMT

nothing against cake (or biscuits or chocolate or sweeties...) apache but advertising such delicacies in a job advert for a professional is somewhat inane if not insulting. Never seen same in adverts for a veterinary surgeon...

Am wondering if Arlo Guthrie would run a test advert for VS role offering cake and see how many applicants or snotty remarks he gets... Lol.

Differentiate, yes. Dumb it down, no.

Just my (professional) opinion...

Ali h

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

apache — Sun, 10 Dec 2017 01:26:03 GMT

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]adverts pop up saying 'we have cake!', well so does Grandma Wilds, but i'm not kicking in her cafe door to get a job and nor will I apply for yours.[/quote]

I like cake. Given 2 identical adverts and one offers cake, I'm going to work there.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

VetNurse Anon a/c — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 22:41:38 GMT

Even if they put down a salary range, or a minimum, gives a potential employee an idea of what they may earn. I'm pretty sure most veterinary professionals understand that salary is usually DOE!

I am now searching for a job (if anyone wants me!!) and I will be moving from referral to first opinion and pay will be something I will look in to.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Ben Ogden — Fri, 08 Dec 2017 09:03:33 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

Had to giggle at the qualifier ...or not!'... If it's indeed 'not' then the salary displayed is non-negotiable, surely? It's expensive enough stress, time and financially-wise to set up or attend interviews so why not be clear in the advert from the get-go?

The salary is £x

The salary is £x minimum but negotiable upwards on experience/qualification

The salary is subject to a maximum cap of £x

and so on.

I won't attend interviews unless I know what the salary expectations are by the employer. Puts me at a negotiation disadvantage. Similarly, if there is no salary range declared on an advert I would ignore it. Clarity and truth. What's wrong with that?

Whilst I am on a mini-rant (!!) I am irritated by the overuse of the word 'enthusiastic' and also 'hard-working' in job ads. Yeah, weed out the miserable slackers...LOL. My thought is that a rather more useful description of the applicants required revolves around the work the practice is expecting to hire for: Experienced consulting nurse, say, or dedicated theatre nurse or must be confident in dealing with the public...

Going back in my box now. Every day I'm scuttle-ing, hahaha!! Xxx

[/quote]

Agree with your Mini rant Alison, it goes back to the Vets have no idea actually what a professional RVN is looking for in an Employer. Still adverts pop up saying 'we have cake!', well so does Grandma Wilds, but i'm not kicking in her cafe door to get a job and nor will I apply for yours.

Employment is a two way thing, know your audience and you will be able to attract the right staff, use cake as your sole attraction and the only thing your getting is diabetes.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

enigmaticat-uk — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 17:39:30 GMT

Yes - to be honest, any advert that gives any indication of salary is more likely to get me to apply. Even just a ballpark - as you suggest either a minimum, range or maximum (although I doubt many practices would advertise their maximum!)would be useful as it's such a waste of everybody's time to go through the application process for a job that wont pay your bills. I speak from experience having wasted my time applying, 2 interviews and a working interview only to find my current salary was higher than they were paying their head nurse so was never going to be an option to match it.

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Robyn — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 15:00:55 GMT

Something like that would be great. It gives seekers more clarity and a better idea of what they're getting themselves in for, but on some level it also shows me that the employer is more likely to be transparent about thing like holidays/CPD/pensions etc. In my head it sets them up as approachable from the get-go. Obviously that might not be the case, and the most approachable bosses I've ever had have had stunningly terrible job ads (the pitfalls of trying to find a job as a student :P), but first impressions matter just as much for us as they do for employers!

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Rachel Woodcock — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 13:04:11 GMT

Great idea Arlo. So often they advertise saying competitive salary which in actual fact it's really not! Also why say stupid stuff like plenty of cake and biscuits - as if that's important in deciding where to work!

RE: Displaying salaries in job adverts

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 07 Dec 2017 12:45:50 GMT

The salary is £x

The salary is £x minimum but negotiable upwards on experience/qualification

The salary is subject to a maximum cap of £x

and so on.

Going back in my box now. Every day I'm scuttle-ing, hahaha!! Xxx