Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sam.23 — Mon, 06 Nov 2017 17:20:22 GMT

[quote user="Ella RVN"]

but they say things like ' wish i was a nurse today so i had no responsibilties and coukd just clean for the day'!!!

[/quote]

Had a similar issue in my last practice so our head nurse used to pair up our newer vets with the nurses for a shift. It seemed to really help as they then understood the role of the nurses within the practice a lot better and it really improved team work.

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 20:07:16 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

With age also tends to come at least a certain level of respect too.

[/quote]

Sometimes yes. I felt so insulted when a few of our clients started calling me The Matron - but the name kind of stuck. - now I'm actually quite flattered when they explained the reason behind it and I suppose in a way I am now trying to live up to the name

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 19:59:41 GMT

nice one

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 16:33:45 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]could always print this out big and stick on the staff noticeboard in a prominent place - might prove useful in getting some discussion going or at least finding out where the land lies with your two not so new grads? https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2017/10/31/vets-want-veterinary-nurses-to-do-more.aspx [/quote]

Oh and Sal the 1st, I've made a start - emailed it to all 9500+ opted in members of vetsurgeon.org, so hopefully that will get the discussion going

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 09:59:08 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I think age can make a big difference[/quote]

Yes, I bet that's right, because apart from anything else, with age comes confidence. The confidence not to take crap from people. With age also tends to come at least a certain level of respect too.

YES! I thought this story was one of the most important I've seen in a long time.

Two things strike me: first that anecdotally, veterinary nurses are underutilised, even under current Schedule 3 rules; second the poor level of confidence vets have in their understanding of Schedule 3.

Conclusion: Even without a change to the VSA, veterinary nurses could be doing more, and the answer lies in giving VSs the confidence to delegate. One way of doing that is to share that story as widely as possible in practice, thereby encouraging everyone to get more confident about delegating ...

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Wed, 01 Nov 2017 00:14:55 GMT

could always print this out big and stick on the staff noticeboard in a prominent place - might prove useful in getting some discussion going or at least finding out where the land lies with your two not so new grads? https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2017/10/31/vets-want-veterinary-nurses-to-do-more.aspx

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Ella RVN — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 22:21:03 GMT

Thank you Arlo and everyone for your fantastic comments and respones, fiid for thought! Although i truely believe its a mixed bag, from new found arrogance, to actual down right ignorance or what an RVN is? I know some vets and more so recently dont seem to have a clue. It saddens me because i remember the days of 'yes vet,no vet, 3 bags full vet' and i had thought we weremaking some head way and past those days, it does appear to be creeping back in.I shall endevour to fly the flag for Nurses as i have done for the past 18yrs.It can be so demoralising when you've worked so hard to get the qualification in the first place.

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:33:59 GMT

I think age can make a big difference - yes you are always going to get somebody who will try their luck but as I have aged I have found that has improved. I wont say it doesn't happen anymore because it does and I can still get rattled by it but it has become more manageable.Perhaps people are just being kinder towards the old witch or maybe I have just got to the stage where I have given up being as bothered by it or maybe its just because I have become less tolerant with age and I am more likely to say something

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Ben Ogden — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:52:55 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]Fortunately I haven't had to use it.....much[/quote]

Ben Ogden - is that because you is a bloke? (said in an Ali G sort of way). Seriously, I wonder if you ever see a difference in the way male and female nurses are treated by VSs or senior staff? I know it shouldn't make a difference, I just wonder if in real life, it does.

[/quote]

It shouldn't make a difference, not at all, but sadly I think it does, more so the older I get also......

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 14:52:07 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I wonder if you ever see a difference in the way male and female nurses are treated by VSs or senior staff[/quote]

Male or female no differentiation in my experience. I've been verbally (and once physically) rough-housed by both genders!

I would say the relevant (conjoined) issues are 1). How you get treated - the aim is with respect; together with 2. How you respond to a less than ideal treatment. Some of us don't have the natural chutzpah or confidence to respond effectively; some of us learn it; and some of us crumble.

An apt response should respectfully/humorously/leave no margin for error communicate (and if needed - reinforce) a firm line in the sand. What I will tolerate and what I won't. It works wonders (as Ben illustrates).

I think it's more an issue of confidence than gender. You can learn it (I did!!).

Also, to set the tone from the get-go - it's a required communication issue for all new starters - let them know how the team works!

If there are any ne'er do wells after they've been told/advised/communicated with enough times - well then, that's another issue (bullying,harrassment etc etc).

Ali h

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 08:51:59 GMT

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]Fortunately I haven't had to use it.....much[/quote]

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Ben Ogden — Tue, 31 Oct 2017 08:09:44 GMT

Any new grad vet or newly hired vet that comes into practice giving this sort of attitude gets a simple question asked.

"how do you put your pants on in a morning?"

"oh one leg at a time do you?, well then so do I, your no more special than I am, stop pretending you are. You have a role to perform and so do I, we can pull together or I can pull the door open for you as you leave."

Fortunately I haven't had to use it.....much

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

steph fursland — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:45:33 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="steph fursland"]It can help to run through what nurses generally do in your practice[/quote]

steph fursland I'm sort of surprised you say 'it can help' as though that doesn't happen automatically in most practices. If it doesn't, shouldn't it?!

[/quote]

It should! (And I’m sure in many places it does, and it’s definitely something that I would try to suss out when starting in a new place). However it isn’t always covered in an induction as the boss might have other priorities or think it doesnt need to be covered as it’s second nature to them... but if the vet in question hasn't worked with RVNs before or in a place where they didnt do much, it might explain the attitude a bit. In some countries, what we class as nursing is done by new grad vets, and their ‘nurses’ are really more kennel assistants.

Obviously none of the above excuses rudeness to colleagues, whether or not you perceive yourself to be senior or have more responsibility than them.

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 09:11:37 GMT

This thread touches on so many things ...

Mainly strikes me as a communication issue. I mean, if it isn't laid out at the start: 'this is how we work', 'these are the responsibilities of the nurses', 'this is how we treat each other', then not altogether surprising if new recruits don't know the ground rules ...

[quote user="steph fursland"]It can help to run through what nurses generally do in your practice[/quote]

steph fursland I'm sort of surprised you say 'it can help' as though that doesn't happen automatically in most practices. If it doesn't, shouldn't it?!

[quote user="AlisonT"]As title says really, what do people do about the total lack of disregard or lack of respect from new grads or vets in general[/quote]

Ella RVN - a couple of things that stood out for me about your post. First, it strikes me that it's a short step from 'lack of respect' to 'bullying', so hopefully the VetNurse/VetSurgeon survey (https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2017/08/30/new-survey-aims-to-discover-how-many-vet-nurses-are-bullied-at-work.aspx), the results of which are due quite soon, will shed some light.

One thing that I have already seen from the bullying survey is that it isn't just a question of vets bullying nurses. Actually, there's a lot of nurses bullying vets, and nurses bullying each other!

Whether you call it a lack of respect, bullying or something in between, I'm really looking forward to when we release the results of the survey, because if it makes people stop for even half a second and think about how they treat each other at work, I think it will have been a really useful and positive exercise!

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Mon, 30 Oct 2017 02:26:16 GMT

any cultural differences that may account for this?

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

steph fursland — Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:41:28 GMT

Hmmm...that‘s a tricky one. With my sympathetic hat on, maybe they are struggling with the responsibility and they just aren’t expressing it very well. However, I think it’s disrespectful (also doesn’t show very good people skills to piss off your colleagues...!) I personally would call them out on it at the time - a nurse has studied for x years, is on a professional register and responsible their own actions just like the vet is.

If you are feeling very proactive, I’m sure there are lots of articles and papers about how nursing care (nutrition, physio, pain relief) can really make the difference in recovery (for instance pancreatitis patients, post surgical patients).

I did hear of something (possibly on here) where they were trying to quantify the nurses‘ contribution (money wise) to each op, so when things were billed, things like the general anaesthetic, hospitalisation fees, catheter etc were under the nurse‘s name - I don’t know if an exercise this might be quite illuminating for your vets who think you just clean all day?

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Sun, 29 Oct 2017 04:29:32 GMT

one or two year qualified? I have just lost a lot of sympathy for your 'new' grads.I have had this a few times - just hand them the mop and grant their wishes, re DD key - I hope your new grads are available at whatever hour of the night/morning to open up for meds required for inpatients? Maybe they just don't understand the nurses role in practice? or have never needed to understand the nurses role?

Its a bit like owners who only see a row of stitches post op and either can't understand (because its too complicated for them to grasp) or won't understand (because all they want to know is that their animal is fixed nothing else interests them) They have no idea what has been done under the suture line or how it was done. The visible bit for your new grads is a nurse driving a mop round, they either don't know or don't want to know about the invisible bits - but may notice them if they aren't done.

If it isn't this and is just an heirarchy issue one of my old bosses used to have a saying on the wall in his office/lair 'NEVER piss off the person who makes your coffee' could maybe stick that up in your staff room

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Ella RVN — Sat, 28 Oct 2017 22:26:32 GMT

Thanks so much for all comments, we have 2 new grads i say new one is one yr qualified the other 2 yrs, but both constantly undermine me and my other RVN colleagues its truly driving me insane i have aired my issues on some occassions but they say things like ' wish i was a nurse today so i had no responsibilties and coukd just clean for the day'!!!! This is an ACTUAL quote! One said we (rvn) werent allowed key for dd as we werent responsible enough( ive been in practice 20yrs) i find it utterly insulting at nearly 40 yrs old i am being tokd by 23 yrs that i am not responsible and all i do for a job is clean??? I just dont know how to changr their mind sets and although i dont respect their views i respect there job role as a surgeon i think if i started disrespecting them back, id be just as bad.

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Sat, 28 Oct 2017 11:48:52 GMT

agreed.

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

steph fursland — Sat, 28 Oct 2017 08:13:28 GMT

It can be really tricky for new grads - they are fresh out of college, suddenly responsible for their own patients, doing practical tasks they haven't done before, trying not to look stupid in front of the nurse who has done a bandage umpteen times before, probably one handed in the dark ;-)

Also remember that they may not be used to working with nurses (vet school set ups vary, so the majority of anaesthesia may be done by intern vets rather than nurses, for instance) so they might not actually fully understand your abilities or your role.

So I would advocate cutting them some slack for the first few weeks. If they do things that you aren't happy with, it may be because they don't know any better rather than they are being dismissive/rude/disrespectful. Let them know you are aware they have lots to learn and nobody is going to judge them for that; that nurses and vets are both professionals and all on the same team, and that's how they should work with you.

It can help to run through what nurses generally do in your practice (as often their induction is from a vet who misses out all those things!) i.e. "please calculate your premeds and tick those boxes on the form, if you do, we will do the bloods/catheter/premed and the patient will be ready to be induced as you finish morning consults".

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Sat, 28 Oct 2017 01:45:39 GMT

[quote user="apache"]

I agree with respect, but it's a 2 way street.

[/quote]

exactly that

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

apache — Sat, 28 Oct 2017 00:18:05 GMT

My problem was nurses treating vet students badly at college. Took me a lot of years to get over that. I agree with respect, but it's a 2 way street. If you don't want to work with students don't work in a vet college.

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

jojofruits — Fri, 27 Oct 2017 16:22:08 GMT

New grads soon learn that an experienced nurse will save their bacon on occasion.. any arrogance soon disappears once that has happened a couple of times!

RE: Lack of respect from NEW grad vets

Sal the 1st — Thu, 26 Oct 2017 22:17:50 GMT

respect - its very simple if you can't give it, don't expect it. Lost track of how many people I have said this to over the years. Some of them have turned into half decent human beings with a little 'tuition'. New grads and I count new grad nurses as well as vets - if all else fails I just point out I have a few more miles on the clock and have had a lot more practice when it comes to throwing a tantrum