Bullying in Practice Survey

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 30 Nov 2017 14:32:47 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]I think that just talking about things between colleagues and friends and getting the issue ‘out in the open’ may help.[/quote]

Well, we're on the front cover of Veterinary Times this morning, so hopefully that article will get people thinking a bit.

Would be nice to hear from anyone who has heard the issue being discussed as a result of this survey, or who has shared the report at their practice.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Kirsty RVN — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 23:26:21 GMT

Yeah I second that! I am a locum and started to feel rather negative while locum and started to feel it was common place in practice but as someone rightly pointed out to me as a locum your there to fill a gap and usually have a very low retention rate.

Bullying is rife in practice and have experienced it first hand and witnessed other people go through it.

I am dyslexic and had a nurse call me a retard! But would repeatedly put me down. Seriously it's like being back in the school ground and not behaviour you would expect from professionals.

I have seen vets go through it, I once saw it happen to a vet from the practice manager who was not a vet or nurse may I add repeatedly put this vet down and undermine her and belittle her in front of colleagues.

As I locum I have walked out of jobs and told the agency I refuse to go back they are that bad and as Sal says I feel sorry for the poor sods left behind.

The job is hard and stressful enough without this carry on!

I was bullied at school but never dreamed it would happen with professional adults.

And they wonder why the can't retain the staff.

Yeah this needs to be addressed

Kirsty

FdSc RVN, ISFM Cert FN

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Sal the 1st — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 23:04:07 GMT

I think for me the best thing that could come from this is for the profession as a whole - ie vets and nurses to acknowledge that bullying in the workplace IS a problem and further to that for individual practices where bullying is being reported repeatedly to acknowledge that THEY have a problem which needs investigating and deal with it rather than denying it. Forget putting ads in Vet Times week on week advertising various positions and advertising how friendly the practice is because it soon becomes obvious that the attrition rate is through the roof and your starts and departs need a turnstile.

So many times when I did locum work I went into practices and by the end of the first day - or sometimes even before I had even got to the first break I started thinking bleeding hell no wonder they run this place on locums. There are some really miserable places out there - and anybody working as a locum the chances are you are going to be seeing a lot of them, but unlike the poor sods who are bound to them at least as a locum you get to walk away at the end of your stint. I had the experience more than once of a locum position covering 1 persons holiday but by the end of the week you may also be covering somebody who has left, somebody on gardening leave and somebody who has gone sick.

Ok there is a general shortage of veterinary staff currently but how many practices struggle to recruit not only because there aren't enough bods to go around but also because of the bullying culture that exists within them which makes working there a thoroughly miserable experience. Perhaps something that could be explored further?

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 19:53:56 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]firstly I just want to say a massive thank you to Arlo and Alison for all of their help over the last few months, as I have suffered from a type of bullying in my practice recently. In fact I think I may have been the fire that lit the touch paper to instigate a bullying survey in one way or another.[/quote]

My pleasure!

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]unfortunately I don’t think that just having a bullying policy in place will make any difference As large corporations have so many practices that work so differently and independently.[/quote]

Sure, having a policy in place won't be the cure all for everything or work in every practice, but the stats certainly showed a correlation between having one in place, and a reduced level of unpleasantness reported. And I do think one can have a basic policy in place that would cover the bases for a wide variety of different practices.

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]I think that just talking about things between colleagues and friends and getting the issue ‘out in the open’ may help[/quote]

That, more than anything, is what I think too. There's a story coming out in Vet Times this week, and I will also be emailing the report to all members of both VS and VN, inviting them to circulate it amongst staff at their practice for comments / thoughts.

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]It will be interesting to see what the RCVS and BVA think about the survey results and if they can come up with a way of stopping it or at least making it bearable for most people to cope with.[/quote]

Again I agree - the way forward lies both in trying to reduce the incidence of bullying type behaviour and equipping people with the resilience/capability to deal with / cope with some of the reported types of behaviour.

Feedback from RCVS/BVA thus far has been that they say some of the results chime with work they've been doing elsewhere on wellbeing. My hope (and belief) is that this has put bullying on the agenda.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

VetNurse Anon a/c — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 17:14:35 GMT

firstly I just want to say a massive thank you to Arlo and Alison for all of their help over the last few months, as I have suffered from a type of bullying in my practice recently. In fact I think I may have been the fire that lit the touch paper to instigate a bullying survey in one way or another.

I have to say that I work for a large corporation that does have a zero tollerance bullying policy, which didn’t help me at all whilst feeling I was being bullied by management, so unfortunately it didn’t help me. About 3-4 months ago I wrote on the forum asking for people’s advice, and would like to inform everyone that had any input in the discussioin, that the matter is still not resolved as management for one reason or another (unknown to me) are dragging their heals and not tying up the loose ends. I am still working for the company as the job suits me, but do find it very frustrating that it is still ongoing.

unfortunately I don’t think that just having a bullying policy in place will make any difference As large corporations have so many practices that work so differently and independently. What will - I really don’t know. I think that just talking about things between colleagues and friends and getting the issue ‘out in the open’ may help. Maybe making the bosses that don’t see the bullying happened aware that these things are going on under their noses, may make a difference. It is however reassuring to know that I am not alone, and that it’s not all in my mind. It will be interesting to see what the RCVS and BVA think about the survey results and if they can come up with a way of stopping it or at least making it bearable for most people to cope with. So many good nurses are lost due to bullying, so any help that is out there that helps to keep them can only be a good thing I suppose.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 28 Nov 2017 09:11:20 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]But how to encourage uptake? Well - here's an idea that occurred to me (bit left field, as are most of my ideas, lol)... How about for every job ad that you place, Arlo, you ask if the practice has/operates a Bullying & Harassment policy and, if so, can you display this in their job ad? I'd definitely look further into working at a practice that made this statement. [/quote]

Great minds, and all that!

Actually, I was thinking to build on that I could increase the fee for advertising slightly, then discount it back down to the current price for any advertiser that could submit their policy. But that would add a level of admin which might be problematic.

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]For those practices that don't currently run a policy and want one - can we help them devise one?[/quote]

Again, great minds!

I've been sharing this work with BVA/RCVS/Vetlife behind the scenes, and wondered if they'd like to take that up. But if not, certainly something VetNurse and VetSurgeon could do. I think there are already some templates out there which could be adapted.

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]What was also clear was that having such policies and enforcing them correlated with lower levels of being on the receiving end of sustained patterns of unpleasant behaviour at the practice."[/quote]

Yes, that really stood out for me too. Gotta be careful of associating cause and effect, but it seems logical and having a policy in place doesn't cost anything and can't do any harm, so seems like a sensible thing to do.

My thought is that it's probably not the policy itself that leads to a reduced incidence of bullying (if it does), it's probably just emblematic of a leadership style that doesn't allow this kind of behaviour to take hold.

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Anyone else?![/quote]

Yes, would be really good to hear from anyone with an opinion on this, esp anyone with a zero tolerance of bullying policy in their practice, or who has strong feelings about what such a thing should contain, or who has experienced bullying or, well, anything!

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 27 Nov 2017 15:07:53 GMT

Arlo Guthrie

.... man, what a man / What a mighty good man / Gotta say it again now / What a man, what a man...

The effectiveness of a visible, understood and fairly operated practice policy would seem the way forward to at least reduce the incidence of bullying and harassment behaviours. (as per your survey results)... Seems to me to work on two levels (minimum) 1. WARNING DO NOT DO THIS and 2. EDUCATION. To show people what types of behaviour actually constitutes bulling and harassment. [Perhaps unaware they are exhibiting it or even thinking the behaviour is 'justified' or the 'correct' way to address a personnel issue... (yeah, I know, NOT ). ]

But how to encourage uptake? Well - here's an idea that occurred to me (bit left field, as are most of my ideas, lol)... How about for every job ad that you place, Arlo, you ask if the practice has/operates a Bullying & Harassment policy and, if so, can you display this in their job ad? I'd definitely look further into working at a practice that made this statement.

For those practices that don't currently run a policy and want one - can we help them devise one?

"Finally, respondents were asked a series of questions about whether there was a zero tolerance of bullying or conflict resolution policy in force and enforced at their practice. Only 24 and 28% of respondents respectively were aware of such policies being in place. What was also clear was that having such policies and enforcing them correlated with lower levels of being on the receiving end of sustained patterns of unpleasant behaviour at the practice."

Just some musings...

Anyone else?!

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 27 Nov 2017 12:56:20 GMT

The survey results are now available here: https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2017/11/27/vetnurse-survey-reveals-profound-impact-of-bullying-in-veterinary-practice.aspx

What would be really helpful now is for anyone with productive ideas about how this kind of behaviour can be reduced to post it here.

Personally, I think one of the most constructive things is just to get the issue talked about, in a matter of fact, non confrontational sort of a way, in practice. What's needed are things to trigger that discussion.

I hope this report will do that in and of itself to some degree. But what else can we do?

All thoughts very welcome ...

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:16:08 GMT

Defo on my watch out for and then read list Arlo Guthrie

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:40:00 GMT

An update ...

Behind the scenes, the very wonderful Sally Everitt MRCVS (ex Head of Scientific Policy at BSAVA) has been crunching the numbers from the survey, and writing her report on the Behaviour in Practice Survey. I've been working away behind the scenes to get permission from some of the survey respondents to include their quotes in Sally's report, and ... we're just about there.

I'll be making the report downloadable in full from VetNurse.co.uk on the 27th November, coinciding with Veterinary Times reporting the results.

Very excited here at VetNurse Towers, because I think Sally has produced something really thought-provoking.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 05 Oct 2017 18:38:25 GMT

Another update.

Tomorrow is the closing date for the survey, and we've now had nearly 700 responses where someone says they have been on the receiving end of at least one of the behaviours listed in the survey. Then it'll be analysed by a greater mind than mine, and I hope we'll be able to share the results within a few weeks.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Scottywildcat — Fri, 22 Sep 2017 15:52:24 GMT

Have been reading through this thread as it went along, great topic and really is about time it was brought to attention as ( like the replies in this prove ) bullying is a widespread problem amongst all the 'caring' professions not just veterinary. What is wrong with these people who do this, have they not moved on mentally from the school playground? I myself was bullied badly at school for years and couldn't cope with that happening in my work environment, which touch wood it hasn't so far. But reading these stories its almost enough to put you off working in practice ever again! My heart goes out to anyone who has or still is experiencing bullying, if I saw it being done to someone I'd be straight in there defending them, I always have despised bullies.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 21 Sep 2017 16:05:19 GMT

Big story on page 3 of Vet Times about the bullying survey in this week's edition ...

The survey closes on 6th October, so if you've been bullied by colleagues in practice in the last year, I urge you to take part (anon, if you wish): http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/3783698/Behaviour-In-Practice

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 14:06:36 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I know I am not always the easiest person to work with and I am sorry for that and really I don't like being that way[/quote]

Don't beat yourself up Sal. I could have replaced the words 'work with' with 'be married to', and it would be how I feel sometimes! But we are none of us perfect, and just the fact that you say that means you're probably more self-aware than most, which in turn makes you less than half as bad as you think you are! Does that make sense?

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]if people could just recognise what they do that affects others the workplace (any workplace) could be a more productive/happier place to be.[/quote]

I SO agree with you. And I really hope that this something that the survey will cause people to think about. All the replies to the survey are confidential, so I am going to have to paraphrase and aggregate them before sharing, but even then, I think my reporting on the profound distress it causes people (and I am not over-icing the cake here), should cause people to sit up and think about how their behaviour affects everyone else.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Sal the 1st — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 13:38:07 GMT

it was just an illustration how the action of one person can have a knock on effect on lots of others and how the results of that action may then be seen as unreasonable, bitchy, bullying to the people who kicked it all off in the first place. I know I am not always the easiest person to work with and I am sorry for that and really I don't like being that way but at least I recognise my shortcomings and try to do something about it, if people could just recognise what they do that affects others the workplace (any workplace) could be a more productive/ happier place to be.

A healthy workplace isn't only down to H+S and official paperwork, documentation and edicts its also down to how we treat each other.

And on that note as I am on holiday I am off to eat some lunch

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 13:32:57 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]do you think some of this stems from people not actually realising when they aren't being nice to each other? In their haste to want to get their part of the job done or enforcing their standards they create problems for others and they don't even realise what they are doing. To me that is not bullying behaviour per se but could quite easily be seen to be.[/quote]

Good question. And actually, I think you're making two different points here.

Do I think that this comes from people not actually realising they aren't being nice to each other? No. Not generally. I think we all know when we're being unkind, ratty, irritable, or indeed bullying. But I CERTAINLY DO think we are sometimes unaware of how profoundly it can affect people around us.

The other point you make, about whether people think they are being bullied by other people trying to enforce standards or get the job done. Again, my inclination is to say no. I think most people can distinguish between someone being ratty because they're under stress, and someone bullying them.

And if not, that's kind of what I tried to avoid by asking about very specific behaviours in the survey.

... in other words, however ratty and irritable you might become, Sal, I'd be surprised if you said you regularly shouted and screamed at the VCA, threw things at them in anger, belittled them in front of clients and staff, sabotaged their work, and so on, and so on!

I DO think that bullying or not, most of these things are ALL about good communication, and can often be avoided by being candid with each other before things get out of control. You've obviously had a go, and it hasn't worked. Don't give up! I think if I were you (and of course I'm not, so what do I know?!), I'd be inclined to do as molladog said. Take the break as you are entitled. If that means something hasn't got done because someone else has taken a fag break, it'll raise the discussion.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 12:49:41 GMT

p.s. I suffer from a medical (cough cough) condition called 'THE HANGRIES' i.e. a lack of food and I go all Atomic (but not Kitten - for those 80's kids out there, titter).

I do pre-warn all (new) colleagues of this in a polite and happy manner to ensure I get my breaks (barring the emergency situations of course) as (and I quote myself here) "Even I don't like me when I get Hangry so am gonna take the first lunch break at 12 - is that okay with y'all???" Usually, it's a big fat yes Ali, or I negotiate a peace-treaty if not. NO worries.

Having said this, it is in my career legend that a vet once chucked a bag of peanuts at me from across the room with a sticky note attached that said "EAT ME!"... apparently she saw a "change in my face" at around 01:30pm when I'd been at work since 07:30am without a break (can hold my wee wee but clearly not my transmogrification into a werewolf, hahahahahahah!!).

Ali h

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 12:39:36 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]the VCA again she is only taking what she is entitled to [/quote]

Not legally entitled to a smoke break... rest break, yes, and THAT INCLUDES YOU, SAL!!!

Q Is a worker entitled to a smoking break?

A No, a worker has no right to a break specifically for the purpose of smoking. However, a worker who works more than six hours per day has the statutory right to a rest break of at least 20 minutes away from their workstation under the Working Time Regulations 1998. A worker may therefore use their statutory rest break to smoke outside the workplace, subject to any restrictions imposed by the employer on smoking outside workplace buildings. All enclosed workplaces are required by legislation to be smoke free.

Q Can an employer prevent a worker from taking a smoking break?

A An employer cannot prevent a worker from taking their statutory rest break. If a worker takes any breaks in addition to their statutory rest break and any contractual break, the employer can treat this as misconduct. In practice, most statutory rest breaks are taken in the form of a lunch hour.

Q How should an employer deal with resentment over smoking breaks?

A While the Working Time Regulations do not make a distinction between smokers and non-smokers taking rest breaks, employers often formally or informally allow workers to take smoking breaks in addition to statutory rest breaks or lunch hours. This practice can lead to resentment from non-smoking staff, who may perceive that their smoking colleagues benefit from additional breaks.

Any failure by an employer to deal properly with a grievance raised by a non-smoking employee may be a breach of contract, and thus lead to a claim for constructive unfair dismissal. An employer could either prohibit all breaks other than statutory rest breaks or lunch hours, or ensure that non-smoking staff have an equal number of breaks.

Q What should an employer do?

A Employers should adopt a policy on smoking in the workplace and amend their discipline policy to cover smoking breaks and smoking in a non-designated area. If employers wish to prohibit the use of e-cigarettes, or vaping, in the workplace, they should ensure that their smoking and discipline policies expressly cover e-cigarettes. As e-cigarettes produce a vapour when a liquid nicotine cartridge is heated, the use of e-cigarettes may not be covered by a prohibition on smoking.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

molladog — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 12:23:12 GMT

You need to shock them by saying 'going on MY break now' (a legal requirement ) and let them see all the jobs that are left still to do because you have 'shock horror ' taken a break just like them. As for fag breaks,...don't get me started....

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Sal the 1st — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 11:21:42 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

The very simplistic lesson from that stat is: BE NICE TO EACH OTHER!

[/quote]

do you think some of this stems from people not actually realising when they aren't being nice to each other? In their haste to want to get their part of the job done or enforcing their standards they create problems for others and they don't even realise what they are doing. To me that is not bullying behaviour per se but could quite easily be seen to be.

Here is an example which I am guilty of. Vet loads me with extra tasks that she hasn't managed to do herself so she can go on her 2 hour lunch break. For me to do those tasks in addition to the ones I am already doing it means I lose my 30 min lunchbreak to get them done. Lack of food and lack of break (any break) makes me tetchy which transfers down the line so when the VCA ,who has already had her lunchbreak , then wants a fag break as well and vet comes back refreshed and asks why I haven't done x which wasn't even on the list ...... well lets just say I am not exactly sweetness and light - and when this is happening every day? The vet doesn't understand because as far as she is concerned she is entitled to her lunchbreak (we both work the same number of hours in the day before anybody comments) and cannot see why I should be tetchy, the VCA again she is only taking what she is entitled to and doesn't see why I should be such a miserable bitch but our working relationship has suffered because neither of them realise in spite of spelling it out in words of 1 syllable I NEED A BREAK. From that I am the bully - the difference is I know I'm not 'being nice' and I don't like being that way but the the other two don't see how they can affect how other people feel and behave. They are both 20-30 years younger than me. Hell I don't know maybe its just me?

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 12 Sep 2017 16:33:57 GMT

A progress report ...

Now 531 responses where people have said they have been on the receiving end of one or more of the listed behaviours (roughly 60% nurses, 30% vets).

Out of a profession numbering around 40K, that's a small number.

But...

a) From the long answers, it is clear to me that we are talking about something which often has a profoundly awful effect on the individual.

b) If they work in different practices (we don't know how many do, but assume the majority), then that's a significant proportion of practices where this kind of thing has happened / been allowed to happen.

Bottom line, is that I DO think 530 responses, particularly when read in combination with their long answers, is enough to warrant further investigation.

I have now done two things:

Firstly, joined forces with Veterinary Times, who will be running a story to spread the word about the survey, and later reporting on the results.

Secondly, joined forces with Dr Sally Everitt PhD MRCVS, ex-Head of Scientific Policy at BSAVA, who will be analysing the anonymised data and reporting the results. She'll provide a far more objective assessment than I could.

I'm hugely mindful of many of the comments made to me about this already:

Yes, the survey provides only one side of the story. There are always two!
Yes, it is possible that some people might misreport something as bullying when it isn't (although as someone has pointed out, if someone is reporting bullying, something is badly wrong in the working relationship, regardless of the rights and wrongs of their story).
Yes, it is hugely important that the survey does not overstate the incidence of this kind of behaviour in the profession. We cannot know what percentage of people in the profession are affected from this survey, only how many have reported it.
Nor can the survey provide any kind of comparison with workplace bullying in other professions.
Yes, it is hugely important that it doesn't create an environment in which everyone just shouts 'bully' at the slightest provocation.

The survey will now close on the 6th October.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Tania Ford — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 16:49:27 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]That's a first (good stick)! Thank you![/quote]

Well I am quite long in the tooth nowadays so its probably not 'down with the kids' vocabulary lol, but thought it summed things up quite well x

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 16:44:13 GMT

[quote user="katseyez"]You really are a 'good stick' to have even raised the issue of bullying.[/quote]

That's a first (good stick)! Thank you!

[quote user="katseyez"]Hopefully something good will come of this survey - even if its the simplest of things like getting people to talk about these issues.[/quote]

I'm determined it will - but I really need to wait for the full results before I make a big song and dance about this.

I think the simplest thing you talk about is actually the most important thing. To get people thinking and talking about the issue, and reflecting on how their behaviour impacts on others.

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Tania Ford — Fri, 08 Sep 2017 16:15:25 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]The very simplistic lesson from that stat is: BE NICE TO EACH OTHER![/quote]

Well done and thankyou Arlo! You really are a 'good stick' to have even raised the issue of bullying. Hopefully something good will come of this survey - even if its the simplest of things like getting people to talk about these issues. Fingers crossed some of the potential and or bullies out there will read, listen and digest what they have been or are doing to other members of staff and just sit back and think before they do anything nasty. Like you say - just be nice to each other and the profession would be in a much better place xx

RE: Bullying in Practice Survey

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 07 Sep 2017 19:02:03 GMT

Well, just to give a bit of a progress report, we've had about 500 reports of veterinary professionals reporting at least one of the behaviours listed in the survey. 60% nurses, 30% vets.

I've discussed this with some bigger brains than mine in the profession, and I think the consensus is that this is a sufficiently high number to warrant further investigation.

I've been particularly struck by the long answers people have given, with a more detailed description of what happened, and how it affected them.

I think there is some debate surrounding the use of the word bullying.

For example, someone might be corrected about something in front of other staff, and feel belittled as a result, but is it necessarily bullying?

Personally, I don't think it matters what you label it - what is clear to me is that there are a significant number of people who are on the receiving end of some very difficult behaviour, and it is causing them a lot of distress.

I'm hesitant to say much more about the survey, because I have just enrolled the help of someone with a far bigger brain than mine to analyse the data properly.

But one thing did catch my eye, which is that when asked who was doing the bullying, 30% of nurses said a veterinary surgeon.

But 45% said it was another veterinary nurse.

The very simplistic lesson from that stat is: BE NICE TO EACH OTHER!