Rant about job adverts

RE: Rant about job adverts

enigmaticat-uk — Mon, 31 Jul 2017 17:33:43 GMT

Yes I find it quite shocking that minimum wage is considered an acceptable level of pay for a RVN, but I would never expect to earn as much as a vet. I think for a lot of practices it's difficult - as the role is evolving & taking on more responsibility, we want more pay and are likely to ask for it for a new job but if a practice has existing staff on a lower range, how can they justify paying more to someone new unless they have something unique to bring to the practice to generate more income.

My main issue though is the lack of transparency in the job adverts, most job adverts for this level of salary in other fields will have a proposed range at least. This is surely a good thing as it stops applicants (& practices) wasting their time if the salary is nowhere near their expectation. I speak from experience as someone who applied for a job, only to find out that after having to make time for 2 interviews and a 1/2 day working 'interview' that as my current salary was more than they paid their head nurse, I would have to take a significant pay cut (even after offering to take a cut equivalent to my savings in transport costs as this job was closer to home.).

The argument against advertising a wage seems to be that they want to offer wage suitable to the individual which might be variable (ie pay as little as they can get away with), but I don't see why they can't advertise a range - most of us have the sense to be able to guess where on the range we would likely be based on our qualifications & experience.

RE: Rant about job adverts

Sal the 1st — Mon, 31 Jul 2017 00:40:19 GMT

I hear what you are saying and sorry if I misunderstood but I have been accused of holding back the future of nursing before because of the way I am and not necessarily wanting what some of the younger ones want so I can get a little bit defensive. At the end of the day in monetary terms we are only worth as much as somebody is willing to pay - if others can get more then do it - but the value of a good nurse in practice is priceless. Maybe I am guilty of lacking ambition too? I used to fight for everything but over the last decade a lot of the fire has gone, it doesn't mean I have lost interest its just that my focus has changed. I am finding the 'advancement' of the profession quite depressing in all honesty.

RE: Rant about job adverts

2005nurse — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 23:10:32 GMT

Sal the 1st- not aimed at you at all. I happen to agree with your posts in so many aspects. My dig there was aimed at employers, who seem to value or advertise for these qualities - which are important characteristics but perhaps used to attract the softer types, which can then be exploited. I think it is good to have a mix of people in a profession- ALL of which, whenever or however they qualified, deserve a wage that is at least enough to get by.

Great points also made above- living within your means and expectations as a VN. Please understand, I can accept the generally low rates (of course it is unfair.... but that's another story), but my main point is how unreasonable it is to expect a QVN to be interested in a 'generous salary' of £15000, or NMW. I'm experienced, I have been around a little bit, perhaps not as ambitious as I could have been, and my current wage is OK (which is probably fair given my ambition). Perhaps this lack of drive is due to the fact that there will be no reward for skills gained - for example DipAVN course?

There are well paid (relatively) positions, and that's great. it's just a shame that the lower end ones are just accepted as normal. To me that tells a lot, and is something I was unaware of until recently.

Rant over for me. I'm not here to judge and believe we are all doing what is right for us, I respect that.....just wish we could be valued more without being perceived as greedy and only in it for the money.....please, I wouldn't still be here is that was the case.

RE: Rant about job adverts

Alison Clare Hickman — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 18:20:13 GMT

Crikey, I am enjoying this thread. I feel I have gone a bit off topic from the OP but here goes.

This quote from Dickens David Copperfield is as true then as it is now... Mr Micawber's famous, and oft-quoted, recipe for happiness:

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

Charles Dickens, David Copperfield

So then. Live to your income. Recognise need over want. Don't spend what you don't have. etc etc.

And yes, I knew when entering the VN profession that it would not line my pockets with gold, silver or even bronze... I cut my cloth to my measure and sought job satisfaction, like Sal, way above finances.

However, I do understand the questioning resentment of some nurses when, after studying for a professional qualification they find they cannot afford a mortgage, a holiday, a car or sometimes just a decent social life without having to rob Peter to pay Paul. [Or having to do without altogether].

Especially so when we compare salaries to other, unskilled but better paid jobs and also to those of other veterinary professionals or indeed laystaff.

I also work in my family Mortgage Consultancy firm - and I see a range of (client) salaries from £15/16k for unskilled labour up to the mega-bucks of the CEO's that apache mentions. Nevertheless, in my experience in this financial role, the majority of professionally trained employees command starting salaries of around the £25,000.00 mark and leading to mid- £30k's and far greater as they gain experience and additional qualifications. So, the National Average of around £27k isn't too far off the mark for a professional starting point I believe!

I admit I am in a quandary. I think we deserve more but not mega-bucks. I know salaries are dependent on practice profitability so that must be borne in mind. I know vets have studied longer than VN's (to qualify) so I can argue they should be paid more to start with. I know, the usual working arrangements between vets and nurses is that the nurse is indeed second in command to the vets direction, so again, I can argue for their salary being higher than ours. There are undoubtedly other similar points in this vein to make but I won't go on...

However, and this is the sticking point; if we as VN's are actively encouraged to develop our profession, gain additional professional qualifications, are therefore more 'use' / 'profitable' / have profitable skills that the vets do not, how can we resolve the dilemma of us being fairly recompensed for that? Something needs to change or the profession will sadly continue to denude itself of experienced nurses. Here's another quote for you (Shakespeare) 'All is rotten in the state of Denmark'... Answers on a postcard please.

So, until we can sort things out better, I return back to my original statement that assistance with negotiating a fair salary, (of course after finding a good position you'd be happy working in), is a great idea.

As a cheeky aside, forget the assistance part if you decide to apply for a job at apache's practice - it clearly isn't considered appropriate (). Each to their own apache, each to their own.

Peace to all.

Ali h

RE: Rant about job adverts

Sal the 1st — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:52:49 GMT

well I'm happy with what I have - I was never under the illusion I would be coming into this job to make my millions. I have job satisfaction most of the time and that is what is important to me.

RE: Rant about job adverts

apache — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 13:43:39 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I had a rise a few months ago and I am now on £10.50 ph - I guess looking at those figures I should be getting be getting all huffed up, hurt and annoyed then?[/quote]

SPVS figures are package value, so if you get CPD, pension, other benefits then that is included in the salary package when they work out hourly rate, not just hourly pay.

Half the people will earn less than the median.

UK average pay is misleading as a few fat cat CEOs of big companies skew the figure to the right.

RE: Rant about job adverts

Sal the 1st — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 11:15:06 GMT

[quote user="apache"]

SPVS median nurse salary (2015) was £21,350.

What do YOU think it should be?

Looking at the interquartile range (£10.64-£14.10) when worked out per hour, clearly very few are actually on minimum wage.

[/quote]

I had a rise a few months ago and I am now on £10.50 ph - I guess looking at those figures I should be getting be getting all huffed up, hurt and annoyed then?

RE: Rant about job adverts

Sal the 1st — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 10:09:11 GMT

[quote user="2005nurse"]

I am seriously concerned for the future of this profession. Will it be propelled forward by strong independant nurses that drive it forward, or will those such people move on? Leaving the 'friendly and enthusiastic' mugs, I mean, desirable ones to continue?

[/quote]

If that was aimed at me I can promise you I am nobody's mug - and I am also seriously concerned for the future of this profession. The profession I came into has seriously changed and not for the better, its not so much about actual nursing and love of the job anymore its about how much an individual can get out of it for themselves. The strong independent types seem to think its ok to not only tread on those below (some of whom helped to get them where they are) but positively stamp on them. It all makes for a really cheerful future - not.

Wage to me is not about what somebody else is getting therefore I want the same or more it is about what I am happy to accept - and if you think I am holding back your ambition well I am sorry because I aint changing.

RE: Rant about job adverts

Alison Clare Hickman — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 08:21:29 GMT

the national average wage is £27000 per annum.

https://www.incometaxcalculator.org.uk/average-salary-uk.php

Ali h

RE: Rant about job adverts

apache — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 01:53:18 GMT

SPVS median nurse salary (2015) was £21,350.

What do YOU think it should be?

Looking at the interquartile range (£10.64-£14.10) when worked out per hour, clearly very few are actually on minimum wage.

RE: Rant about job adverts

2005nurse — Sun, 30 Jul 2017 01:17:32 GMT

Thank you for some interesting perspectives. Of course it is all relative, but minimum wage!?! I don't think any nurse expects to earn more than a Vet, but I think there's plenty of room to go above £7.50/hr before that threshold is crossed. (Or are low vet salaries a problem that I'm unaware of?).

I am certainly able to discuss salary with prospective employers, but isn't it a shame that the general mentality is to pay as little as you can get away with? I understand it may be thought of as good business sense, but I am really put off (the advertised job and nursing in general) when the range advertised is so low. Maybe it is accepted because as a student nurse working for free sets the standard, so once qualified, £15000 seems like a fair amount (until rent/mortgage/food needs to be paid and no matter where you live in the country this must be very difficult?).

More off putting is when there is no salary indication, so I guess good on the advertiser who at least is up front about it and doesn't waste the time of a person who may love the sound of the role but simply cannot afford to live on such a low income.

RE: Rant about job adverts

Sal the 1st — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 21:03:02 GMT

[quote user="apache"]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]have a problem with staff retention do you? Can't imagine why?[/quote]

No. Our staff seem pretty happy, thanks for your concern. I'd like to think we keep pace with what they are worth, our SVN is on nearly twice what I could get away with paying her as an apprentice, more than her college mates.

[/quote]

glad to hear it. Sorry if I misunderstood

I don't agree with 3rd party negotiating either - having been stitched up by one in the past, and I agree that the wage question has to be discussed but there are people out that that don't fight as hard as others (and I will hold my hand up to that) but it does not mean that I am less deserving of a decent wage just because I don't. I like to think I am fair with employers but if they take the pee I don't stick around. Respect is a two way street in my book if you can't give it don't expect it back.

At the moment there are plenty of experienced nurses out there who have decided sod it its just not worth the hassle and they just disappear off to other employers or leave the job all together, not because they have fallen out of love with nursing they are just tired of having to fight.

RE: Rant about job adverts

apache — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 20:39:53 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]have a problem with staff retention do you? Can't imagine why?[/quote]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]So you are saying an experienced nurse who has more practical skills but lacks the hard nosed skills to fight their corner when it comes to wage is worth less to the practice than somebody fresh from college who can fight tooth and claw for every penny? Nice.[/quote]

No. What I'm saying is a professional should be prepared to have such conversations. I'm thinking hard now and I don't think staff have ever asked for more money and always seem pleased with pay reviews. If you tried negotiating too hard I don't really think I'd want you working for me, I believe I pay very fairly. I'm not entertaining a 3rd party doing your negotiating.

I don't think that's unreasonable. I sense you must work for such a company?

RE: Rant about job adverts

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 20:35:51 GMT

[quote user="apache"] If you don't have the balls to argue your worth then do you even deserve it? [/quote]

?? teensy bit harsh, I feel, apache! Not everyone is expert at promoting themselves or handling pay negotiations; so to have help with this is surely a good thing for the job seeker, not only the right place and position, but the fairest salary possible for themselves.

However, I do concur that recruiting through an agency adds costs for the hirer, so some, like you, avoid it on that basis. That is fair enough.

I have personally located work through my own direct approach to practices and also through a recruiter - both worked well for me and the practices concerned. Nevertheless, I will say that I vastly improved my abilities in how to personally 'argue my worth' through listening to advice given to me from a very benevolent recruitment agency. It stood me in very good stead thereafter to more successfully 'haggle' directly with practices and not under-sell myself. Though perhaps I should use the description 'negotiate' instead - it sounds more professional, (but amounts to the same thing, I think!).

As for nurse salaries competing with a vet, who you correctly identify as being expected to generate income - well, e.g. if I was permitted to charge for my nurse-expert consultations then I could generate income for a practice and perhaps therefore command a higher salary as a result...it is fair that if you can put in that you get out, yes?! As our profession become more specialised and with the related professional qualifications, why not? Onwards and upwards.

Peace to all.

Ali h

RE: Rant about job adverts

Sal the 1st — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 20:25:23 GMT

Please will folks stop comparing the wage of a veterinary nurse to that of a human nurse as this is what has caused most of the problems - they are two entirely different jobs. One is public funded (which is probably why the NHS is in the state its in) and the other private, they are not comparable. I have yet to work in any practice (corporates included) that has the moneypit funding capabilities of the mighty NHS. If people want NHS rates go work for the NHS.

but will take issue with this

[quote user="apache"]

If you don't have the balls to argue your worth then do you even deserve it?

[/quote]

have a problem with staff retention do you? Can't imagine why? So you are saying an experienced nurse who has more practical skills but lacks the hard nosed skills to fight their corner when it comes to wage is worth less to the practice than somebody fresh from college who can fight tooth and claw for every penny? Nice.

will counter that one with pay peanuts and get monkeys

There has to be a middle ground somewhere. Would be exceptional for a VN to earn NHS rates but on the other hand they are worth more than the bod pushing a mop round in the public toilets for the council aren't they?

RE: Rant about job adverts

apache — Sat, 29 Jul 2017 16:31:05 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Having a friendly recruiter to do the haggling for you is key, if you're not comfortable doing it yourself. Plus, the recruiter will help you sing your praises (give you your true value!) if you are shy of doing so.[/quote]

There is no way we would entertain this from either nursing or vet staff. Adds vastly to the cost of recruitment. If you don't have the balls to argue your worth then do you even deserve it? Similarly we will only take school kids who want to see practice when they make contact themselves, not their parents or a 3rd party.

I think this is a feature of the relatively low pay in the profession. £7.50 NMW = £15,600 on a 40hr week. A nurse is going to have to work in a pretty innovative way to command the same salary a vet - the general view is a vet needs to turnover 4-5X their salary in chargeable fees.

To compare an experienced human nurse earns £28,000 and up to £35,000 with management responsibilities (=head nurse). Experienced consultants on £100,000+ - not many vets will earn half that in their career. Relatively you are not doing so badly - if any of us came into this just for the money, we were rather stupid.

RE: Rant about job adverts

WelshyNurse — Thu, 27 Jul 2017 17:58:33 GMT

I would never offer an RVN NMW, although, i may not offer a newly qualified higher than my experienced nursing assistants, but thats because they have been in the practice donkeys years and their salaries increasing over the years

RE: Rant about job adverts

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 27 Jul 2017 16:24:39 GMT

I think if i tried offering NMW to an RVN i'd get a bag of dog poop left on my doorstep.

And it would be on fire.

RE: Rant about job adverts

Ben Ogden — Thu, 27 Jul 2017 14:12:39 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]

RVN devaluing themselves / not valuing themselves higher (my friend says that THIS is the most common reason).

[/quote]

You are right, THIS is a big one. You believe you should be paid fair, you have to beat that drum and make it clear you deserve to be paid fair. Last time I was job seeking I had two offers and I was clear and concise as to why, "you are offering less than what I deem as fair pay". Earlier this year a practice approached me and offered me a package to work for them, all these perks etc etc, but again a sub par pay, another straight to the point "your offering less than what I'm willing to work for".

Places will continue to offer poor pay providing people are willing to walk in and take it.

You want to be paid fair? Don't sell yourself short and don't accept less.

RE: Rant about job adverts

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 27 Jul 2017 12:27:10 GMT

Hi,

I write a blog for a veterinary profession recruiter. As he is a personal friend I do get honest answers about the 'ins, outs and latest thoughts of employers' re their hiring wants and salary expectations...

... I understand these aspects of wage negotiations:

national differences (eg NI far lower than the rest of the UK)
new/relatively new practice - again, lower due to set up costs and employer being unable to afford greater. They may WANT to offer more for a select candidate but, for business financial purposes, simply cannot do so.
employment opportunities low in the area (usually rural) so employer has the upper hand in negotiations
rest of the practice team - if already on NMW or slightly greater then will not naturally wish to upset the apple-cart (fear of comparison and upset in the team).
Similar applies re the resident Vets' wage; the employer doesn't want to pay a nurse near to, equal to or higher than a VS, irrespective of the VS experience (or lack of) - plus (usually) Vets expect to be paid higher than a nurse. [Why? I've always maintained that if the VN is highly qualified and experienced he/she should be appropriately financially recognised. You cannot truly compare a vet and a nurse - we do different roles (although there is cross-over). IME, some vets have been inexperienced (occasionally uneducated about) patient nurse care/behaviour and other nurse-related skills, so they rely on a nurse's skills and experience (and qualification) ... why not get paid for this?!
What they can get away with offering as no-one, yet, has challenged it or they just wait until someone accepts it
RVN unskilled in negotiating
RVN devaluing themselves / not valuing themselves higher (my friend says that THIS is the most common reason).

on the positive side

some practices actively seek and value VNs and particularly those with additional qualifications and experience and WILL pay a decent salary/offer benefits to attract them.
Having a friendly recruiter to do the haggling for you is key, if you're not comfortable doing it yourself. Plus, the recruiter will help you sing your praises (give you your true value!) if you are shy of doing so.

None of this is new info though really, is it?

Anyone else??

Ali h