Disciplinary action

RE: Disciplinary action

WelshyNurse — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:03:49 GMT

fab!

RE: Disciplinary action

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:57:23 GMT

yaaaaaaay! Good triumphs over evil.

Well done. Now go party...

RE: Disciplinary action

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 14:44:49 GMT

Well done! That is fantastic news. I am so pleased for you. And good on them that someone saw sense!

If I were you, try and keep the discussion about the PM constructive, i.e. not having a pop at the PM, but practical ways in which the situation could be prevented from happening again.

And also ask to know what is being kept on your records (ie the ideal is not that they record 'disciplinary de-escalated', because someone reading it later might think 'no smoke without fire', better (and fairer) they delete all reference to disciplinary).

RE: Disciplinary action

VetNurse Anon a/c — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 14:25:35 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]The question is, how long have they delayed?[/quote]

Today will be 3 weeks since the actual incident and 16 days since the original 'fact finding' investigations.

New update regarding my Disciplinary hearing:

After asking for the regional business manager to be taken off the case last Thursday, as I didn't feel that he would be an impartial investigator (because he was the one that originally decided to take it to a disciplinary hearing), I can confirm that he has been removed from the case and I have now been allocated a totally impartial manager to take a look at the case and decide a way forward - YEAY!

I have now spoken to this person who has decided to de-escalate the case as they feel that it doesn't warrant a Disciplinary hearing, just a general chat to see what measures can be put in to place to stop further 'frustrations' from happening!

This is exactly the outcome that I would have wished for (even though it could and should have been sorted without the need for any HR intrusion). Have to say that if I wasn't such a stubborn 'Taurean' and had just rolled over like a naughty puppy, the outcome would have been much, much more severe!

Thankfully the powers that be have 'seen the light', so feeling much happier, that's for sure

I Will take this 'meeting' opportunity to air some of my PM 'issues', so may well get some things sorted there as well.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank ALL of my esteemed colleagues for all of their support during this very stressful period. You are all stars in your own rights, and if my case is anything to go by, keep sticking up for yourselves! Thanks guys

RE: Disciplinary action

Sal the 1st — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 08:31:31 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]It doesnt harm to get general legal advice and then should you need to use it (you may not need to ) you have a bit of a head start.[/quote]

I was going to say that myself, actually!

I had a dispute with my employer many years ago (slightly different to this, I had been sacked). Hired a London West End lawyer (to send a signal to the ex-employer that I was not mucking about with a small provincial lawyer - I was bringing in the heavy artillery).

They charged £200 for a robust and legally unarguable (and rather wonderfully sarcastic) letter demanding the £1500 the ex-employer owed me in notice pay. Ex-employer, who had previously refused, then coughed up leaving me with £1300 after paying the lawyer.

I don't know, but I think you'll find that you can ring most lawyers for an exploratory chat to get a sense of whether they think you have a case, at no charge. That's what happened when I rang all those years ago.

[/quote]

as my dad used to say 'keep your powder dry and your options open'

RE: Disciplinary action

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 08 Aug 2017 08:22:39 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]It doesnt harm to get general legal advice and then should you need to use it (you may not need to ) you have a bit of a head start.[/quote]

I was going to say that myself, actually!

RE: Disciplinary action

Sal the 1st — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 19:09:05 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

Well.........update on my disciplinary hearing - it didn't happen and was cancelled without anyone involved being informed!

I arrived at 10am with my chaperone. The note taker from another branch also arrived on time. The area business manager that was taking the hearing didn't arrive on time and when he was 20 minutes late, the note taker rang him to find out where he was and why he was delayed, only to be informed that the meeting had been cancelled because I had asked for someone totally impartial (not him) to take the meeting, and that as they hadn't found anyone yet, a new date was to be set!

To say that I am pissed off, angry and also very upset is an understatement! I really was hoping that it would be done and dusted today, or at worst, given a reason as to why it had been taken so far. Both my bosses had been informed of the cancellation and were asked to pass it on to the relevant people - this obviously did NOT happen!

What I don't understand is WHY they feel they can do this to me, and there seems to be absolutely no empathy whatsoever as to what I am going through, and have gone through over the past 2 weeks :( I am now awaiting a reply to an email I have sent to HR about the entire situation!

I have held off from any legal advice as I really wanted to see how today went, but am now seriously considering taking legal action against them. Does anyone have any advice as to WHO would be the BEST people to contact? I have been told to speak to the CAB and given a legal contact, but would it be best to contact ACAS in the first instance?

TIA for any advice you guys can give me as you have all been amazing so far

[/quote]

It doesnt harm to get general legal advice and then should you need to use it (you may not need to ) you have a bit of a head start.

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]

I am now awaiting a reply to an email I have sent to HR about the entire situation!

[/quote]

If this is the group I think it is don't hold your breath - they will be waiting for you to get so het up over this that you jump ship and save them the trouble

RE: Disciplinary action

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 15:31:33 GMT

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]it didn't happen and was cancelled without anyone involved being informed![/quote]

This may just be inept management, but either way, it is absolutely disgraceful because it shows no regard whatsoever for:

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]what I am going through, and have gone through over the past 2 weeks[/quote]

[quote user="VetNurse Anon a/c"]Does anyone have any advice as to WHO would be the BEST people to contact?[/quote]

Hmm - ghastly though the whole situation is, it sounds like it might still be premature to take the next step - i.e. you have to see what happens at the meeting before you know what you are up against.

And the problem is that calling in legal or other support ups the ante very considerably, and usually forces the employer to go onto the defensive. You have to be really sure it is the best moment to do that.

Strategically, therefore, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to grit your teeth at this stage, wait for the meeting, but use this delay and the lack of communication as part of your case; another thing on the list you can present of ways they have behaved badly.

The question is, how long have they delayed?

RE: Disciplinary action

VetNurse Anon a/c — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 12:28:59 GMT

Well.........update on my disciplinary hearing - it didn't happen and was cancelled without anyone involved being informed!

TIA for any advice you guys can give me as you have all been amazing so far

RE: Disciplinary action

molladog — Mon, 07 Aug 2017 09:18:05 GMT

Good luck, keep calm and don't let them talk over the top of you.....

RE: Disciplinary action

Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 Aug 2017 20:06:26 GMT

well as a PM they may not need to clean but as a PM they will have to start looking for staff - and that should keep them more than occupied for a little while. Still not quite sure why the SOPs weren't already there with it being a corporate tho as I know how corporates love to standardise.

RE: Disciplinary action

VetNurse Anon a/c — Sun, 06 Aug 2017 18:52:51 GMT

Thanks for that Sal. I haven't sought legal advice just yet as I, for some reason, still want to give them the 'benefit of doubt' and don't want to go down he legal route just yet. i have compiled my defence and also started writing a Grievance case against the PM. Depending on how things go, will depend on when I want to open that can of worms.

As the practice was completely new, no SOP's were in place what so ever and we were pretty much left to our own devices as the 2 bosses were busy with their own already established practices. I however knew that we should have at least some important ones in place, so set about the task of finding some corporate templates that fitted the bill. We were pretty much doing things as we should have been, but since the incident I have now re written them in slightly simpler 'English', so that everyone can understand them. The PM has pretty much refused to do any cleaning since we first opened, so do not know why there was a need for her to get involved! The only people involved were myself and my student. The only other person involved was the vet who merley 'overheard' the incident. Unfortunately her statement of events are somewhat different from mine and my students, so that is why I think the matter has been taken this far, even though it was the PM who instigated the complaint! I will add though that the PM did not see or hear anything. All she saw was my upset student who when asked what the problem was, said I'm just p****d off and don't want to talk about it. As I was the only other person there, it was relatively obvious it was me that had upset her, so the PM then took it upon herself to find out and then from how I see it, maliciously open a complaints procedure against me. This is probably the first opportunity I have given her to do so Oh well, lesson learned - be very wary of people who seem to act like your friend, but who really arent'! She has managed to manipulate the bosses from day one. She was hired as a receptionist, then decided as she had more experience than the 2nd receptionist, asked to be made Head Receptionist, and then when she was asked to do a few more tasks, decided that she wanted to be PM! As the bosses are far too busy with their own practices, they decided to take the easy option and make her PM without asking only one else's opinion. 2 pay rises and 5 hours knocked off of her working week, and she's well happy - well she will be extatic once she's got the place all to herself!

Im not bitter, I just can't believe what a mug she has made of me, and it feels like she has just been biding her time, waiting for something like this to happen Oh well, what will be will be. Fingers crossed it all goes well tomorrow, but one thing I will say, is that the PM will get her wish as I cannot and will not work under these conditions, so am very much looking to move on

RE: Disciplinary action

Sal the 1st — Sun, 06 Aug 2017 14:41:35 GMT

all the very best x . Don't forget the CAB if you need them, even the mention of 'you have taken legal advice' whether you have or haven't ( and I have no idea) may be enough to cause a hasty rethink on their part. It does sound very much like they are relying on intimidation. And when all this is over consider if you do still want to work in such an environment? if the answer is no then find somewhere else and screw them for as much as you can - it sounds like they deserve it (definitely more than they deserve any kind of loyalty from their staff) and its not very often you will hear me say anything like that.

This is the sort of behaviour that I can identify with from one of the corporates I had the misfortune to work for - basically if they wanted to lose somebody for whatever reason, and it was usually because that particular person cost them too much, they got in cheaper replacements because 'there are 100's of bunny huggers out there who would jump at the chance' it would be done via a disciplinary procedure. Its nasty, its demoralising and its illegal but it is a recognised modus operandi. We are looking for a qualified nurse as are many places - you will have no trouble at all finding work elsewhere.

Will also add that if it is the same group your vets shouldn't be feeling too comfortable either as they could quite easily find themselves at risk if there is a chance of getting somebody cheaper.

.... Just thinking a little more on this - with it being a corporate there should be an SOP for cleaning which will presumably apply to all sites? If the way you are doing things complies with the SOP for everywhere else then that would indicate that your PM is not working to a SOP but making it up as they go along. If the way that you are doing things does not comply with the SOP then yes you are not conforming but it can be argued that you haven't been made aware that a SOP exists. If there is no SOP then there can be no set way of doing things - and if there is no SOP whose fault is that?

Were you the only one to raise their voice during the altercation? if not then why aren't others going through the same disciplinary process?

RE: Disciplinary action

Alison Clare Hickman — Sun, 06 Aug 2017 14:07:52 GMT

Luck luck luck

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

RE: Disciplinary action

VetNurse Anon a/c — Sun, 06 Aug 2017 12:55:55 GMT

Wish me luck guys! My disciplinary hearing is at 10am tomorrow morning. It's going to be interesting!

RE: Disciplinary action

jojofruits — Fri, 04 Aug 2017 17:27:56 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]jojofruits LOVE YOUUUUUU! I fell about laughing with this post[/quote] Me too. I think I am jojofruits number 2 fan (assuming you are no 1 :))

[/quote]

n'awwwww

you guyyssssss.....

RE: Disciplinary action

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 19:33:06 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]jojofruits LOVE YOUUUUUU! I fell about laughing with this post[/quote] Me too. I think I am jojofruits number 2 fan (assuming you are no 1 :))

RE: Disciplinary action

Alison Clare Hickman — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 18:42:53 GMT

or simply put... A b****rd

RE: Disciplinary action

Tania Ford — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 16:34:28 GMT

[quote user="jojofruits"]eh?[/quote]

a cunning, amoral, and opportunist person

RE: Disciplinary action

jojofruits — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 16:06:10 GMT

[quote user="katseyez"]

[quote user="jojofruits"]There are a lot of psychopaths in management .. doesn't mean they are gonna murder you, but does mean that actually genuinely have no empathy.. its a big problem in business[/quote]

MACHIAVELLIAN

Conduct or philosophy based on (or one who adopts) the cynical beliefs of Niccolò Machiavelli (1469-1527) whose name (in popular perception) is synonymous with deception and duplicity in management and statecraft. Born in Florence (Italy), Machiavelli was its second chancellor and (in 1513) wrote the book 'The Prince' that discusses ways in which the rulers of a nation state can gain and control power. Although The Prince contains some keen and practical insights into human behavior, it also displays a pessimistic view of human nature and condones opportunistic and unethical ways of manipulating people.

[/quote]

eh?

RE: Disciplinary action

Tania Ford — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 15:26:46 GMT

MACHIAVELLIAN

RE: Disciplinary action

jojofruits — Thu, 03 Aug 2017 11:51:21 GMT

Its true! google it!!

RE: Disciplinary action

VetNurse Anon a/c — Wed, 02 Aug 2017 20:51:31 GMT

I feel for you. I was bullied by another member of staff for a long period and had several withnesses to the abuse I was subjected to daily. After numerous complaints I eventually had a meeting with the head of centre, my immediate line manager, the lady that bullied me and myself as per the grievance procdure. My line manager did not appear and I was informed by the head of centre that she was too busy. The meeting went ahead and the two of them proceeded to put me down and bully me for the whole meeting turning everything around so it seemed it was all my fault. They would not consider the witness accounts they had received. When I asked my line manager why she did not attend she said the head of centre told her I longer needed her to attend.

The bullying continued until after another year I could take no more and left. I did consult my union and they were very helpful but as they had started to bully me when no one else was around it was my word against theirs. Since I left they have recruit on four occasions but the new nurses have left within weeks of starting but they still don't see there is a problem.

I do feel that there should be somewhere we can go as these situations go on far more than I think anyone realises.

RE: Disciplinary action

deborah horne — Wed, 02 Aug 2017 20:37:18 GMT

Interesting, I qualified in 1986 and am at the point now where I refuse to work for any corporate vets and in fact am loosing faith in the veterinary world entirely because of them. I never believed that I could be reduced to this. I have worked in many practices over the years, most of them very good and wonderful places to work so what is it with the (new) large company owned practices, well most of them. I have consulted employment lawyers but have to admit to being totally 'chicken' when it comes to taking them on, I wonder why? Union ? Yes very definitely a good idea today I believe. Human resources maybe they deal with 'how to upset well qualified staff' when the PM takes a dislike to them. No ? Good luck, one day one of us will be brave enough to take them on, I look forward to reading the case

RE: Disciplinary action

Geniverger — Wed, 02 Aug 2017 20:05:15 GMT

I agree with Jojofruits. Lawyer up, and call ACAS - they offer free, impartial advice and they were brilliant for me when I went through something very similar (a very small issue was blown way out of proportion, they tried to bully me out of my job, but I hit back and eventually won my case). learning the legal side of things helped me a lot to have the confidence to see it through.

It's no wonder the profession is haemorrhaging nurses, this is another perfect example of an experienced nurse being treated like a irritation which has to be paid for and not a human being with a valuable skillset. I wish you all the luck in the world, don't ever doubt yourself and your skills as a veterinary professional, and dont give up the fight - you will win, but you will have to tough it out. Don't give up.