RCVS Schedule 3 consultation

RE: RCVS Schedule 3 consultation

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 10 May 2017 09:33:03 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]but it needs to be done very very carefully[/quote]

Agree!

My own feeling, based on anecdotal feedback I hear frequently, which is very much along the lines of what sarah clarke said earlier, is that this review should not be about expanding the role, but about better clarification and direction of the existing role.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Although I feel sched 3 should be better defined I am worried that by coming up with a list of procedures

i) vets may feel nurses are encroaching on their territory[/quote]

Provided it's just clarifying the role, this should be kept to a minimum. Of course there are bound to be a few hard-liners for whom a nurse should never do anything other than mop the floor, hopefully the rest can be persuaded that it is in their interests to delegate and spread the workload better.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]ii) that nurses just get more hacked off if RCVS says they can do something but their boss says no for whatever reason[/quote]

Well, I agree that it would place a greater onus on the boss to give a proper explanation for saying no. But is that a bad thing? There are perfectly valid and sound reasons why the answer might be no, including when the VS is not confident that the VN is sufficiently skilled/experienced.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]iii) because there is a list it then becomes assumed that every nurse will want to do everything on the list (a surgical bucket list if you like) [/quote]

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure I'd agree that it would be assumed that every nurse wanted to do everything. But I do think it could lead to a point where VSs expected every nurse to perform tasks on the list.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Sorry but I just don't like the idea of using schedule 3 to 'make the role of the VN more interesting and varied' - no disrespect - but there are better ways of getting excited[/quote]

That surely is a case of 'each to their own'. Certainly a lot of the feedback I hear is about VNs feeling under-used, which leads me to believe that many do get excited about Schedule 3 stuff - perhaps because you've 'done that, been there', it's less interesting for you.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Anybody asked the vets - and I mean all the vets what they think?[/quote]

VSs are included in the RCVS schedule 3 consultation.

RE: RCVS Schedule 3 consultation

Sal the 1st — Tue, 09 May 2017 21:31:00 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I think (hope) a lot of you are taking part in the RCVS Schedule 3 consultation: https://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2017/05/04/veterinary-nurses-urged-to-take-part-in-schedule-3-consultation.aspx

Wondering what changes you would like to see made to Schedule 3.

I've argued for a long time that Schedule 3 should be better defined, probably with a list of examples of surgery considered 'minor' and therefore OK for a veterinary nurse to perform under supervision of VS. Two reasons: firstly, by helping vets delegate, to improve efficiency in practice. Secondly, to make the role of the VN more interesting and varied.

Do you agree? And if you think there should be a list of minor acts of veterinary surgery that can be performed by VNs, what should be on that list?

[/quote]

Yes I agree schedule 3 needs better definition but it needs to be done very very carefully taking into consideration at least the following

1) how much experience should a VN have before they are let loose on an owners pet? ie I know nurses who are newly qualified (and indeed longer qualified nurses ) who, in my opinion are too cock sure of their abilities - until something goes wrong and there is a living (hopefully) animal who is on the other end of the knife.

2) under the supervision of a VS - would that supervision be in the same room? which presumably they would be if using a gaseous or incrementally dosed GA as we are not really supposed to be altering %'s or doing 'top ups' - if so its probably faster and safer for the VS to do the procedure themselves and the nurse assist. Supervision from a distance ie VS in the same building somewhere- how soon can the VS intervene if the brown stuff hits.

3) would informed consent of the owner be sought - would the owner be happy that the procedure wasn't being carried out by a vet ? and would this be reflected in the pricing in any way?

4) Would insurance companies place a limit on certain procedures if they are on the sched 3 list and could be carried out by a VN even if they were carried out by a VS ?

Although I feel sched 3 should be better defined I am worried that by coming up with a list of procedures

i) vets may feel nurses are encroaching on their territory

ii) that nurses just get more hacked off if RCVS says they can do something but their boss says no for whatever reason

iii) because there is a list it then becomes assumed that every nurse will want to do everything on the list (a surgical bucket list if you like) - and actually there are those of us who wouldn't, we have already been there, done that, got the teeshirt and got the surgery aspect clean out of our systems (anybody else out there identify with the Saturday afternoon stitch up given to you as 'a treat' because the vet wants to go upstairs and watch the footie?)

I did quite a bit of minor surgery in the past including tail amps, lump removals including mammary tumours, stitch ups, pinnectomies on crispy cat ears - would I choose to do it now? - not a chance.

Sorry but I just don't like the idea of using schedule 3 to 'make the role of the VN more interesting and varied' - no disrespect - but there are better ways of getting excited

Anybody asked the vets - and I mean all the vets what they think?

RE: RCVS Schedule 3 consultation

sarah clarke — Tue, 09 May 2017 20:08:03 GMT

I also agree that there needs to be a more defined schedule 3 list as there some grey areas, especially with the varied VN roles you get in different practices. I found it amazing how little some nurses do in some practices and how much they could do at a neighbouring practice when I was locuming and still now from students, clinical coaches and RVNs.

This makes it difficult for Vets understand what a nurse can or cant do especially if they are getting varied opinions from other professionals. Both Diploma and Degree RVNs have to go through difficult course content and assessments.

I find it such a shame that their skills aren't always used or to their full potential.