Euthanasia of Rats

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Livethedream — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 18:54:28 GMT

This is very interesting, there seems to be pretty much a 50/50 split, although I do wonder if which method is preferred depends on how experienced the vet doing is with small furries? I imagine vets at an exotics practice may be more confident injecting into the heart, if it takes more skill, with the owner present than those with less experience who may have to take a few tries to get it in the right place?

How long does it usually take for the anaesthetic to begin to wear off? I can find very little online but the 2 sources I have found (both of which seem to be American and University resources, so how reliable they are im unsure) suggest that Iso can potentially begin to wear off in as little as 2-3 minutes! If it can potentially begin to wear off that quickly it leaves a very small window of time to return them to the consultation room, advised that they are now asleep etc, get them in the correct position and locate the right place to stick the needle (it took her a few attempts).

Theres always the possibility of something not going to plan but IF the Iso can potentially wear off that quickly it seems to be a pretty narrow window of time to work with and a higher chance of it going badly wrong than a IP injection which if it does begin to wear off will cause "mild discomfort" rather than "excruciating pain"

Amy

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Sal the 1st — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 16:25:57 GMT

lol I had a bit of a reputation - a vet once told me I could get blood from a stone if I was left long enough!

but you are right - if it has blood it has plumbing and an access point somewhere - but I will still use i/p where there is no other option - ie the collapsed rta cat with no veins and you have to get the bp up before you can get a vein, sc fluids will get there eventually but you need it faster so go i/p. The cat or dog with a ruptured bladder peritoneal dialysis - I would never rule out i/p completely if used judiciously and I believe that is how it is used where I work now

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Celine — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 13:53:46 GMT

Thanks Sal, I was sure they are pretty prominent from memory, just don't have one nearby to confirm

Always amazes me how you present some people with an animal other than a dog or cat and they lose their mind and rational thought goes out the window. It's an animal, it has blood, ergo it needs something to keep it's blood in. Veins. Animals have veins.

(Oh, and birds and reptiles have veins too. Amazing isn't it?!! No excuse to be plunging needles into animals' bellies in my opinion! Last option not the lazy first one!)

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Sal the 1st — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 11:07:25 GMT

yes I have used tail vein before for drawing blood, surprisingly easy (or maybe I was just lucky)

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Celine — Tue, 27 Dec 2016 07:42:04 GMT

[quote user="Rosie"]

I think we need to be moving towards sedation rather than 'gassing', whether an owner is present or not, for welfare reasons. That is, adequate sedation given SC or IM such as medetomidine and also containing an opiate, and once sedate enough, pentobarbitone IP/ intra liver or kidney with lidocaine.

[/quote]

I'm also a bit confused by what you mean, are you proposing to give lidocaine and then wait a length of time for it to work? Because obviously doing it simultaneously would be absolutely pointless. I do think this would be significantly prolonging the whole thing?

Potentially agree regarding opiates or medetomidine but as I said earlier, I think IP is not an efficient method and is the lazy / unskilled option. I think intra liver or kidney may well be as painful as intracardic, and again if they're compromised in those organs possibly less efficient.

Does no-one ever use a lateral tail vein? It's been years since I did anything with rats but you can get a tail vein on a 150g marmoset so I'm sure you could find one on a rat?

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

qwerty9263 — Mon, 26 Dec 2016 23:09:56 GMT

I work at a medical research lab at a University and we gas and then straight into the heart, they go super quickly and don't need a lot of lethabarb for it.

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Sal the 1st — Mon, 26 Dec 2016 17:54:36 GMT

[quote user="Rosie"]

[/quote]

I think I may be missing something here? The main reason we use a gas anaesthetic prior to injecting pentoject is that giving an injection requires restraining which many small animals particularly find stressful and that giving an injection to a conscious animal of this size no matter what your size of needle is going to be painful. I recall it being mentioned at one CPD that even using a 25g needle to the smaller animals its the equivalent of us being injected with something the size of a knitting needle. I might be wrong and I am sure somebody will correct me - but to me in this case I would rather my pet was asleep and insensible before any injection is given. I suppose its a preference thing?

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Rosie — Mon, 26 Dec 2016 17:17:12 GMT

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Anne Watkins — Sun, 25 Dec 2016 00:06:11 GMT

I think they should always be anaesthetised first and then usually it's intracardiac for the most effective euth. some vets have done it without gas before but I personally think that's cruel as it's got to be painful no matter how quick!

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Celine — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 19:20:32 GMT

It's not very nice for the people involved but so long as the patient is under surgical plane of anaesthesia (and actually I usually have them super deep to the point it's 50/50 if it's the iso or the pentoject that ends it) then I think it's okay - remember that they're not aware of it happening at the time and they never have to wake up and experience the possible pain afterwards. But I'm sorry it distressed you - personally I hate IP injections and especially in old collapsed animals it just doesn't get absorbed fast enough to for my liking and prolongs the whole sad thing. Hope you can lay your mind at rest. Merry Christmas

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Livethedream — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 17:12:42 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]

I do know vets that will GA and then go into the heart and I know their reasons behind it. They do this because they don't want ratty to wake up from the iso before the pento takes effect and cause distress to an owner who is present if ratty starts to move as it wakes.

[/quote]

Thankyou :) I did ask the Vet at the time why it was being done in the heart this time and she simply said that different Vets do it differently, which wasn't helpful!

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]

The vet that seemed a little unfeeling may have quite unintentionally have upset you.

[/quote]

Mabey she was just having a bad day, or mabey shes just not as good with the humans as she is with animals but to simply tell an owner its "not very nice" after telling then your going to stick a needle in there pets heart was really surprising. It made me anxious that it was going to cause him to start convulsing or something :(

Even though my head knows that they wouldn't do anything that would actually cause any suffering or anything, when your actually in that position your vulnerable and you do worry that something will go wrong. :(

Luckily the Vets I usually see are lovely and i will just avoid her for any PTS in the future

Amy

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

Sal the 1st — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 15:30:42 GMT

I have seen it done both ways - we generally iso down and then i/p inject but may use iso again afterwards to make sure ratty doesnt wake up before the pento has chance to take effect if there is an owner present. I do know vets that will GA and then go into the heart and I know their reasons behind it. They do this because they don't want ratty to wake up from the iso before the pento takes effect and cause distress to an owner who is present if ratty starts to move as it wakes. So I can see this one from both sides. The vet that seemed a little unfeeling may have quite unintentionally have upset you.

RE: Euthanasia of Rats

WelshyNurse — Sat, 24 Dec 2016 14:20:20 GMT

Gas then injectio into the abdomen, always