employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Fiona2914 — Fri, 01 Jul 2016 23:25:22 GMT

I hope this works out for you - I left an employer for expecting the same at least half an hour everyday and often two hours over. And you were made to feel like you were letting the team down because other people would have to work harder even though they could have either helped or paid me to help. I don't expect to walk out the door on the dot 15 mins is what I allow but even then you are expected to arrive at least 15 mins early so actually that's half an hour a day without staying late.

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:13:55 GMT

[quote user="kerryfeehan"]ok so if you are paid salary and have a day off sick how do you work out how much will be deducted if you have no hourly rate?[/quote]

I've always paid sick pay!

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

kerryfeehan — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:18:42 GMT

thank you :) Must admit I do find it frustrating working even 15 minutes over my shift time as in my opinion that is then my own unpaid time and life is short!!!

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Steph Worsley — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 23:37:20 GMT

[quote user="kerryfeehan"]

ok so if you are paid salary and have a day off sick how do you work out how much will be deducted if you have no hourly rate?

[/quote]

Just because you don't have an hourly rate stated in your contract you can work it to an hourly rate: so for example if I was being paid a salary of £18,000 a year and my normal contracted working hours are 40 hours a week:

18,000/52 =£346.15 a week

£346.15/40 = £8.65/hour

I reckon looking at this thread I've always worked for honest practices who had me salaried and gave me either time in lieu or paid overtime. Like I said even weekends were paid extra. most of my contracts have stated that any work above and beyond my normal working hours can be taken in lieu at an hour for hour basis (for example today I was able to have a half day due to lieu time I had accrued) or if extra work during the week I can have it paid as single time and then weekends are at an enhanced rate (time and half Sat and double time Sun). I wouldn't sign a contract stating anything less than that unless I was being paid on an hourly rate.

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Noodle — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 23:08:15 GMT

I was on £6.16 ph as a newly qualified in 2011

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Sal the 1st — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 22:49:14 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]last time I was salaried I got neither overtime or time and at 14.5k on 45hrs p/w who 'may be be expected to work unsociable hours or public holidays as and when required' as a head nurse I don't think I was classed as a high earner either. [/quote]

Ouch! I don't know how long ago that was, but, at £6.20 an hour, that would be illegal now.

[/quote]

2006, so granted that was a little while ago, by which time I had been in practice for 22 years and had been qualified for 10 of them - and at the time that was considered to be a pretty good deal!

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

kerryfeehan — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:21:54 GMT

ok so if you are paid salary and have a day off sick how do you work out how much will be deducted if you have no hourly rate?

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 10:19:42 GMT

Ouch! I don't know how long ago that was, but, at £6.20 an hour, that would be illegal now.

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Sal the 1st — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:00:19 GMT

last time I was salaried I got neither overtime or time and at 14.5k on 45hrs p/w who 'may be be expected to work unsociable hours or public holidays as and when required' as a head nurse I don't think I was classed as a high earner either. I think a lot depends on how individual practices interpret things and the trick is to discover the particular interpretation

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

WelshyNurse — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:50:05 GMT

I am salaried and don't get paid overtime, but I do get to take the time back. I can either save it up or take an hour here and there.

I prefer this to extra pay.

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Steph Worsley — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 22:01:15 GMT

[quote user="sananbaz"]

[/quote]

This isn't how I understand salaries to work, as far as I was aware salaries are where you are paid £X a year and that is then split into 12 (usually) to be paid monthly. Set amounts per day/per task I see as being a wage rather than salary - I wouldn't say that locums are salaried as it is not a set income throughout the year.

I have always been salaried (17 years and 6 practices) in my full time nursing roles and have NEVER been penalised on having to work late....normally time in lieu has been given but in some practices we were paid overtime (usually on a single time basis) even my weekends were classed as overtime (as they were above and beyond my contracted salaried hours) usually at an enhanced rate though. maybe I have just been lucky though.

I did however work a short spell as a rep and was salaried and that didn't matter how long I was working I still only got a set amount.

I currently work on a part time basis alongside my full time role in a separate practice where I get paid hourly and therefore not salaried.

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:09:15 GMT

[quote user="sananbaz"]If you don't mind, can you explain the difference between salaried and hourly rate, as I can't see a difference if the salaried person still gets overtime pay?[/quote]

There isn't much. Generally, it is 'accepted' that higher earners, who are salaried, will not get overtime pay and their hours are averaged out over a longer period of time. They still have a contract of their 'normal' hours, but will not get paid less or more if those hours differ. However, I don't think putting someone on a salary can be used as a way of getting lower paid earners to work free overtime - again, worth seeking legal advice!

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 09 Jun 2016 12:02:31 GMT

Oops - have just done a bit of research and, apparently, employees don't have to be paid for overtime. But it should still be in your contract what your 'normal' hours are, and the overtime mustn't:

- cause your wage, when overtime is included, to fall below the minimum wage

- cause your hours to exceed 48hrs/week unless you have specifically accepted this in your contract.

The legislation seems a bit 'wooly' as to whether you can be forced to work, unpaid, more than your contracted hours. As has been suggested, may be worth speaking to a legal advisor?

In my practice, the salaried staff always take time off in lieu for overtime worked. However, it is easy enough to work out your hourly rate by dividing your salary by your contracted hours.

You really need to work out your losses here. (In fact, more nurses should do this as a routine - it is pretty common for people to think they are 'well paid' when, in effect, they are simply working a hell of a lot of hours!) For example, say you are contracted to work a standard 40 hours a week and earn £9 per hour. That is a salary of £18,720. If you were to work, on average, just one hour a day more, you should receive another £2,340 in your salary! However, if it is unpaid overtime, you would effectively be earning only £8 per hour!

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

sananbaz — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 23:18:35 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

A salaried worker will still have their working hours written into their contract - usually the only difference is the stability of those hours. We have salaried staff - including our manager and one receptionist - and they will still be paid overtime or have time off in lieu for hours worked outside of her standard rota.

[/quote]

That's really interesting, and very different from what I thought salaried meant.

If you don't mind, can you explain the difference between salaried and hourly rate, as I can't see a difference if the salaried person still gets overtime pay? And if they don't have an hourly rate, how do they work out how much overtime they are due?

Sorry, so many questions! Hope you don't mind x

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 20:42:56 GMT

[quote user="violet"] ive looked at my contract and all it states is my shift hours[/quote]

In which case you should be paid overtime for hours worked outwith those hours.

There seems to be some confusion about being paid per hour vs salaried as far as 'acceptance' of overtime. Believe me, there really isn't. A salaried worker will still have their working hours written into their contract - usually the only difference is the stability of those hours. We have salaried staff - including our manager and one receptionist - and they will still be paid overtime or have time off in lieu for hours worked outside of her standard rota.

Vets can be slightly different, with a bit more flexibility due to the nature of the job, but they still have their 'normal' hours and are rota'd for OOH. Besides which, as has been said, their wage carries a premium to cover this overtime. A nurse's wage is unlikely to!

It may be worth counting just how many hours you have worked in a month, and have a look at how the overtime affects your effective hourly wage. The boss of sports direct is currently having to explain why his staff, who also had to work overtime for free, (they were expected to arrive early, and leave late, to enable security checks etc.) were effectively working for less than the minimum wage. He is in a lot of trouble for the exact same thing - a culture of 'expectation' in order to keep your job.

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

Sal the 1st — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 08:16:16 GMT

[quote user="sananbaz"]

[/quote]

I was thinking the same - but it isn't that unusual for nurses to be salaried. It has happened to me 3 times.

[quote user="sananbaz"]

The mention of shift hours in your contract kind of goes against the salaried argument though. Salaried positions tend to be better paid (due to the increased risk of working longer hours) bit I'm guessing that also isn't the case here??

[/quote]

Agreed - it sounds like somebody is after the best of both worlds but commitment to neither. I know most of the time there is a bit of 'give and take' and this job but so long as it isn't just one sided....

RE: employment law regarding hours/ unpaid work

sananbaz — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 00:36:18 GMT

If you are a member of bvna, they have a helpline for just this kind of advice. They've always been excellent, in my experience.

It sounds as though your employers want you to be salaried - where you get paid a set amount per day or per task, irrespective of how long it takes to do. It would be unusual to be salaried as an RVN in permanent employment (may be more likely if locumming, but usually for vets). The mention of shift hours in your contract kind of goes against the salaried argument though. Salaried positions tend to be better paid (due to the increased risk of working longer hours) bit I'm guessing that also isn't the case here??

You can join bvna if you're not already a member, and use the helpline straightaway.

Good luck