Wild Animals in Captivity

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Caro Laithwaite VN — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:15:57 GMT

Unfortunately AH l cannot give a fuller answer as every time l type even one line you complain that l am picking on you. With this in mind l feel it is better for you if l do not reply as l do not wish to upset you.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Emma Purnell — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:53:40 GMT

One thing I was always very passionate about was captive breeding and the wonders it is doing... until I did my degree and masters in Ecology.

One thing we don't think about with regard to it is the fact that these species have been on the brink of extinction. This means the genetic diversity within the species is VERY low in some cases. When we then breed them out, however well managed, there will be problems. If a disease that one is susceptable to is passed to the population, there is VERY little chance of resistance. All these populations we have 'produced' may well be lost.

Cheetahs were the example given to us, they have a very tiny genetic pool and it was suggested we may have no wild specimens left in as little as 20 years...

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:37:05 GMT

I do not see where I have assigned human emotion to any animals in my posts, and just copy and pasting them without explanation has not really shown me anything. You seem to have developed an attitude against me and I am not sure why. I was under the impression that this was a good place for discussion free from animosity based on failure to agree with someone who obviously is not willing to let other people have thier own opinions.

I have not slammed conservation parks. I have said populations of animals have been boxed in. No where did I say that it was the conservation parks fault.

"you are saying that not only do you need them you need zoos and it does not matter if animals are feeling discomfort in a zoo then that is ok for the greater good, and appear to justify behaviour which has a basis in stress."

I think you need to re read my posts. You may have misinterpreted them.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:10:47 GMT

Meant to add it is easier to make a perfect environment for a small animal that does not move far, the challenge comes for the large wildlife.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:09:42 GMT

Instinct tells animals to live, and if its doing that I cant see an animal choosing to die while its instinct is telling it otherwise. Can you?

I am not saying if the animal is in pain/suffering ect what I am saying is that given a choice an animal in capitivity would prefer to live.

Saying this I wouldnt say that the animal would be better off dead. It seems wrong to me to say this as it puts everything they had been through, all the hardships they struggled to survive, into the realm of pointless. Good quality of life is important and if the animal is not suffering from pain or a long slow illness then why say 'kill it because I dont think its happy'?

These eagles as I said in my above post were injured, they couldnt fly well and therefore couldnt survive in the wild. But they could have a perfectly happy life in captivity. Majestic is a human emotion you've assigned to eagles, just to let you know I personally feel that any discomfort being in captivity a wild animal might have (and with the number and scale of enrichment activities now a days they are very minimal evidensed by the lack of formation of sterotypical behavior) is outweighed by the good conservation programs do in preserving the most valuable resource we have on our Earth, our flora and fauna. It is our fault that these animals are near gone, it is up to us to rectify our past mistakes.

I can say with absolute certainty that if you could get an animal to understand you and offered it life or death they would choose life every time. If they were not so keen on living then half the prey species in the world would not try so hard to stay alive. You with your human reasoning are perhaps anthropomorphizing a bit on what they may or may not think. I have seen some fantastic zoos, rehabilitation and conservation projects. I have been behind the scenes all all 3. If ever you have any doubts to the happiness of animals in captivity visit Whipsnade and even the London Zoo. What they have done with the Rainforest exhibit is second to none. Its like walking into a living breathing rainforest all for the pygmy marmosets and like sized primates who are so endangered in the wild.

Pacing, in and of itself, is not a hallmark of unhappiness. It could be habit developed in another environment. Removed from the environment they could be happy but still pace simply out of habit.

The above quotes are what l was pointing out they are all based on personal reasoning and not on facts. Most of them have been addressed by replies of others so for the most part l have not added in any, just complied the request to say where the “l” comments were. I am puzzled as to the comments one moment in one thread you slam conservation national parks as boxing animals in the next you are saying that not only do you need them you need zoos and it does not matter if animals are feeling discomfort in a zoo then that is ok for the greater good, and appear to justify behaviour which has a basis in stress.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:54:28 GMT

[quote user="AHogarth"]My opinions about euthanasia in wild animals is that it shouldnt be used unless all other options are explored. [/quote]

I understand that, but whose options....... the options that sit well and are chosen by humans, or options that maybe better in the long term for the animal?

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:52:59 GMT

[quote user="AHogarth"]My opinions about euthanasia in wild animals is that it shouldnt be used unless all other options are explored. [/quote]

I suppose that is where we differ - I don't believe death is the worst thing to happen to an animal, or for it to be the last resorl - far from it. But the same could be said for humans (but is an altogether different discussion...!)

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:52:07 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

You do a lot of "l" [personal] transference onto the animals l am wondering where the animals choice comes into this.

[/quote]

That would be news to me, but please explain. I am more then willing to be open minded about that. But please, without the hostility.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:49:45 GMT

I would say not. I have no wish to see animals suffer, and I know every situation is different.

My opinions about euthanasia in wild animals is that it shouldnt be used unless all other options are explored. I think it was because of what happened to the tiger that caused me to really think about the whole idea of euthanasia, in wildlife especially. But this experience is not tarnishing my other view on similar cases.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:40:08 GMT

You do a lot of "l" [personal] transference onto the animals l am wondering where the animals choice comes into this.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:38:08 GMT

[quote user="AHogarth"]I was fairly attached to this tiger[/quote]

Do you think that the attachement to the Tiger, bears any significance as to your feelings of euthanasia now towards wildlife? ie in a negative way? Are you maybe putting your feelings of despair at the loss of the tiger on more situations where euthanasia would be the better option?

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:33:47 GMT

What if its instinct is telling it to migrate a few hundred miles - but it is sat in an enclosure. Or its instinct is to mate when it is housed in a single-sex group. Is instinct always correct or appropriate?

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:31:03 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

It is a question based on your coments of total certainty.

[/quote]

My reasoning behind it is as I've said. Most animals are swayed by instinct. Instinct is their most valuable tool for survival. Instinct tells animals to live, and if its doing that I cant see an animal choosing to die while its instinct is telling it otherwise. Can you?

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:26:10 GMT

It is a question based on your coments of total certainty.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:24:42 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]

By making an animal think like a human and not what it is that is forcing your human feelings onto another species and is immoral. Nor are you in any position to say with certainty what a wild animal would want and it shows that you have the arrogance to believe you know what it would want.

All you know is what it would accept at that moment in time, ie you had some peanuts in a pocket and the money ate them and that coincides with your belief system.. that the money wants wants to know you.

As even humans do not agree on their beliefs take muslims and christians how exactly do you know what an animal would want let alone what belief system out of all the human ones it would want.

[/quote]

Im not sure who you are addressing here in this post. If it is me, then all I can say is how can you be in a position to say with certainty what a wild animal would want? Is that also not arrogance to assume that the animal would want to be dead over captivity? Your post seems unnecessarily hostile for a discussion...

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

A Little TLC — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:24:17 GMT

lol! its ok, i wasnt sure!! in my experience our 3 legged animals are perm... not released, for eg, deer with leg caught in fence, sometimes necessary to amputate, if realeased it could totally happen again, would be murder to put them out.

as for handrearing, if it is done correctly and in the right environment, it can be done successfully without imprinting. they are then put into mixed social groups (of both handreared and others) they learn from each other and can be released... and that is just...awesome!!

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Claire Cameron — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:19:07 GMT

[quote user="A Little TLC"]

"In my limited knowledge of wildlife, how is this fair?"

what do you mean by this bit?

[/quote]

I dont have vast experience working with wildlife, but how is my example fair, then the example I noted re amputating wild animals limbs etc. Not very well written nor good english but im tired and sore sorry

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

A Little TLC — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:17:54 GMT

"In my limited knowledge of wildlife, how is this fair?"

what do you mean by this bit?

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:16:28 GMT

Habit is not indicative of happiness or unhappiness. Its just habit.

Im not saying its impossible that it could be unhappy, but using hearsay to decide is spreading bad rumours undeservedly. Ive seen the tiger exhibit and spent a lot of time with the keepers. I rely on that to know that things are ok.

Im uncomfortable with the cavalier way people suggest euthanasia without illness/injury. Im more of the opinion that if every choice is exhausted and the sterotypical behavior developed can not be conquered and has developed into harmful behavior then yes euthenasia is the best option. Other then that I have to believe that there is always another option then to throw a life away without trying to make that life better. It just seems to be the easy way out when every avenue hasnt been explored.

Maybe an example will help get my ideas a bit more clear:

I knew a zoo where I used to volunteer. They also had a tiger exhibit andit was a good enclosure with lots of stimulation. There were three tigers in this exhibit. A mother and her full grown daughters. Tigers are normally solitary but can coexist in the same enclosure hapily, but something instinctual in this mother was telling her to drive her daughters away now that they were adult, and as the mother was getting on in years the daughters were being told by their instincts to take over her territory. They got into a fight, and the mother was injured. It wasnt a very severe injury and she wasnt so old that she was suffering from artheritis ect. She was happy in her enclosure except for the problems with her daughter. The zoo in question had space to relocate her daughters into a different, bigger enclosure leaving the mother in her origional one. They had the money to ensure the new enclosure had all the good enrichment stuff tigers love.

Instead, they chose to euthanise the mother tiger and use the money that could have been used for the new enclosure on an indoor heated swiming pool for the Rhinos.....

I was fairly attached to this tiger, she was facinating to watch and had such character. She liked to chuff at people she was familiar with when they approached her enclosure in greeting. She wasnt too very old and she could have had many years ahead of her but for the decisions of people who had no right to make the decision she did and neither the knowledge to make it.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Claire Cameron — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:13:04 GMT

I seem to agree with all of Gillians posts here

I have a friend who works for a large animal charity and she informed me they were amputating fox legs, hand rearing animals such as badgers etc to name a few examples.

In my limited knowledge of wildlife, how is this fair?

PS My Monkey Baby on Channel 4 now is bloody horrific,

People are owning monkeys as babies, putting make up on, clothes, filing their nails.... HORRIFIC

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:12:58 GMT

As even humans do not agree on their beliefs take muslims and christians how exactly do you know what an animal would want let alone what belief system out of all the human ones it would want.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Cat Woman — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:08:11 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]majestic is not an emotion, I think what was meant that they were majestic in flight[/quote]

You got it STRVN! So beautiful & majestic - maybe an emotion on my part, but nothing to do with transferring those emotions to the birds.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Cat Woman — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:05:33 GMT

[quote user="AHogarth"]Majestic is a human emotion you've assigned to eagles, just to let you know :)[/quote]

Not sure that I agree that for me to see an animal as majestic, is assigning any emotion to that animal? I do agree that a bird that relies so heavily on its flight to hunt etc, who has damaged wings, could not survive in the wild. I do not agree that this means that they can live a perfectly happy life in captivity. Their instinct is to hunt/breed etc to survive. Yes, they will no doubt live long lives in captivity, but maybe this is because it is in their nature to survive.

I used to rescue & rehabilitate oiled seabirds, guillemots, gannets etc. There is no way on this earth, that if any were not fit to be returned to the wild, that they would have be kept captive.

No doubt this debate will go on for some time yet & I look forward to having others add their views & opinions.

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:57:40 GMT

[quote user="AHogarth"]

Majestic is a human emotion you've assigned to eagles, just to let you know :)

[/quote]

majestic is not an emotion, I think what was meant that they were majestic in flight

Re: Wild Animals in Captivity

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:55:23 GMT

[quote user="AHogarth"]

Pacing, in and of itself, is not a hallmark of unhappiness. It could be habit developed in another environment. Removed from the environment they could be happy but still pace simply out of habit.

[/quote]

I would not say it was a hallmark of happiness though, more like a hallmark of boredom or dementia.