Flying Guest

Re: Flying Guest

Heather Christie — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:37:07 GMT

I think this is one of those topics where nobody wins the arguments. As Nurses, we stand in the way of nature by treating and curing animals that, left on their own, would die. Yet, being a nurse is bourne out of love and respect for the animals that nature provided. I think the best you could do is what you feel is right. When you start getting into what's the best for a given ecosystem or the whole world then you're in too deep. There are far too many repercussions to accurately judge what will happen, some of which won't even be visible for years. Whatever happens some will die and some will live.This is my humble opinion.

Re: Flying Guest

Mac Feather — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:39:03 GMT

[quote user="Bouncyfi"]

"a definition of the word pest is an annoying, often destructive creature"

Doesn't that describe humans????

[/quote]

Sounds like my other half!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol!

Re: Flying Guest

Kiahanna — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:46:08 GMT

You should have a look at the Yellowstone scientific studies as well as the reports for the areas around Mt St Helens after the volcanic eruption. Both these ecosystems were nearly destroyed, and in a short space of time they are repairing themselves.

http://www.yellowstonepark.com/MoreToKnow/ShowNewsDetails.aspx?newsid=179

http://whyfiles.org/031volcano/6.html

Also check out the reports on the areas surrounding Chernobyl. There is a good documentary about it that documents how wildlife in the area is coping after the disaster. Apparently, they are adjusting just fine and are reclaiming areas once inhabited by humans. Not even a nuclear explosion can keep ecology from seeking to re-establish what is normal.

Re: Flying Guest

Emma Purnell — Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:39:31 GMT

I studied Ecology and we had this debate on many an occasion.

It is not as simple as reintroducing one animal or another, if we reintroduce wolves to an area which has lost them in the past, for whatever reason, the system has moved on. The animals are not used to the predators and there is then another shift which can lead to further species loss etc.

Restoring Ecosystems is not that easy, they take hundreds of years and any grazing animals will demolish them well before they get off the ground. Can we then justify culling the grazers to plan for the future?

Yes we have caused problems in the past, but we cannot just 'fix' it now. It is all a giant balancing act!

Re: Flying Guest

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:27:10 GMT

I realise that you may not agree with what I believe, but that does not mean that you are right, nor that I am and that certainly does not mean that you have the right to degenerate to insults.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]Tell people off about.[/quote]

I have not told anyone off, and I am confused as to where you got that impression.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]Now if your kid or family member is ever attacked by a dangerous dog you are to let the dog do what it wants as that is nature the dog must NOT be harmed. In fact if anything happens to your family you must not try and stop it as this is just nature and should be left alone.[/quote]

You are willfully misunderstanding me here, why I am not sure but I suspect to try to prove that you are right in all things. It would not be natural as dogs are a domesticated species thus taking nature out of the picture. The 'do not interfere' comment I made re wildlife photographers was in response to all the interference we humans have done to natures so far. If we hadnt interferred in the first place things wouldnt be so messed up.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]By my standards if the elk are starving then l would go out and cull if there is not enough carnivores to do the job, this allows enough food for the remaining elk.[/quote]

Would not the better answer be instead of having to cull every year restore the ecosytem that was demolished in that area?

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]At least l do not stick my head in the ground and tell everyone off for doing what they have done and support all l can to not only stop death by saving every animal on the planet regardless of circumstances but stop people who know a damm sight more than l ever will trying to improve things for those animals that are in situations they are in.[/quote]

You don't know me personally or my knowledgebase nor my character. I have never stuck my head in the sand and to show you general manners you passed civility ages ago.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]Living on a ranch did not seem to have shown you much about life in the raw. That is the problem with life today, the PC brigade.

Where you have this problem with your theory is that in the next breath for saving every animal you then start on complaining about elk starving and drowning and then say that it would be better if the wolves tore them up. Whichever way they die is natures way of culling, l personally do not think either is better than the other.[/quote]

I fully know what it is to have a hard life. As I stated before you dont know me and you have no idea the kind of life I have had before now.

I pointed out that the Yellowstone ecosystem was damaged by the erradication of the wolves. Removal of the wolves caused the population of coyotes to increase ( I believe you were complaining about them killing livestock?), allowed the prey species like elk and moose to increase thus grazing and browsing the forests and altering the landscape. Reintroduction of the wolves back again has seen in just that short span of time a beginning to reallignment to that ecosystem without the need for humans to once again go in and kill more animals.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]Yes l do agree that it is nice to see wolves and other species reintroduced but who is playing god now? Nature is stressed and struggling to survive wolves have died out and you just threw a carnivore species back into the equation. Nature is known for its own major species culling so what gave a mere human the right to decide to reintroduce is that not the height of arrogance?[/quote]

Restoring things back to the way there were before we messed them up isnt playing god. Wolves didnt die out. They were shot, stabbed, poisoned, skinned alive, dragged half dead behind horses, burned to death, and had any number of horrible things done to them to wipe them out.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]Now with regards to helping any animals/birds you find injured those should also be left to nature not humans. Please ensure you leave them to die because by your standards anything else is interfering with nature.[/quote]

I said nothing about helping animals/birds found injured being left. See above statement about like subject. I believe in helping injured animals and infact I believe one of my first posts was to say that just because an animal is labelled a pest does not mean that it does not deserve treatment.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]That is one of the things that the average tree hugger misses. It is the fact that small holders with a few acres.
They could accept the odd animal that gets eaten as facts of life but it is not the odd animal.
As for protection dogs (and donkeys and geese and other guardian animals) are all to often killed perhaps you may like this exert based on this year:[/quote]

I searched for this exact quote but was unable to find anything. If there is a source, please post it. Being raised in a farming community has enabled me to get the insight that, unfortunatly, not all farmers/ranchers are entirely fair on anything that approaches being a predator. I have seen them go overboard too many times.

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite"]The carnivores do not just kill an animal they will kill several and take a bite out of the odd one. They destroy fences and chicken coops and barns. Fear of man has been lost and this means that the animals stray outside park borders because they know that nothing will happen.[/quote]

So your solution would be to, what? Kill and torture a whole lot of them to put the 'fear of man' back into them? I would be interested to see the figures, and reliable ones, about just how much damage 'wildlife' actually does to fences and barns.

Re: Flying Guest

humanenurse — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:27:47 GMT

I certainly don't see how leaving an injured and so in pain animal to die because it is wild is right. As you've pointed out it can depend on the area. I live in build up Manchester, and so the bird is not a pest, there are no farms nearby. And left to it's own devices as you suggest means it would have been tortured slowly by the many cats who live on my road.

When the rspca offered to pay any fees, and my local vet is 2mins away, I could see no reason to leave it any longer to suffer. No animal should have to go through that domesticated or wild, that's what we are for isn't it? To step in when nature will be harmed by us/our dometicated pets.

Re: Flying Guest

A Little TLC — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:18:32 GMT

haha! good!!

Re: Flying Guest

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:15:58 GMT

Course we can agree to disagree we are disagreeing so that means we are agreeing something like that

Re: Flying Guest

A Little TLC — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:14:28 GMT

"Now with regards to helping any animals/birds you find injured those should also be left to nature not humans. Please ensure you leave them to die because by your standards anything else is interfering with nature."

I do this because i believe they have as much a right to life as a pet. I in fact respect them far more, as I have mentioned in a post before, they cope by themselves, no nice meal put down for then at the same time everyday, no comfy sofa, no heating, just life in the outside.

I certainly feel anything hit ny a car deserves treatment, its not their fault a bloody great metal thing hit them, they were here first after all.

I dont want a row, can't people just agree to disagree???!!

Re: Flying Guest

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:05:31 GMT

Just back from the hospital.

I fail to see where l said l wanted to possess this earth l would offer the use of my glasses but they are distance so l suggest you try some boots glasses

I try to understand nature that is there today and to do my best to help. I did not make the parks but l would be bloody proud if l did. It is thanks to foresight of some people who fought against all odd to get them up and running that any wildlife is left.
Yes animals are kept boxed in parks it is a fact that many species do still exist even if teetering on the brink the reality is no parks no species, and you would not sit in your nice little air con. home and tell people off because there would be nothing there to tell people off about.

Now if your kid or family member is ever attacked by a dangerous dog you are to let the dog do what it wants as that is nature the dog must NOT be harmed. In fact if anything happens to your family you must not try and stop it as this is just nature and should be left alone.

By my standards if the elk are starving then l would go out and cull if there is not enough carnivores to do the job, this allows enough food for the remaining elk.

At least l do not stick my head in the ground and tell everyone off for doing what they have done and support all l can to not only stop death by saving every animal on the planet regardless of circumstances but stop people who know a damm sight more than l ever will trying to improve things for those animals that are in situations they are in.

Living on a ranch did not seem to have shown you much about life in the raw. That is the problem with life today, the PC brigade.

Yes l do agree that it is nice to see wolves and other species reintroduced but who is playing god now? Nature is stressed and struggling to survive wolves have died out and you just threw a carnivore species back into the equation. Nature is known for its own major species culling so what gave a mere human the right to decide to reintroduce is that not the height of arrogance?

Now with regards to helping any animals/birds you find injured those should also be left to nature not humans. Please ensure you leave them to die because by your standards anything else is interfering with nature.

Well l think because you are also saying that everything needs saving so l do not really know where you stand.

The problem isn't having money for animals that are killed by wildlife. That is one of the things that the average tree hugger misses. It is the fact that small holders with a few acres.
They could accept the odd animal that gets eaten as facts of life but it is not the odd animal.
As for protection dogs (and donkeys and geese and other guardian animals) are all to often killed perhaps you may like this exert based on this year:

........The myriad battles he had, last summer alone, with different wild predators trying to kill one form of livestock or other. One night I had 5 grizzly bears in the yard…right over there.” He pointed to a fence-rail that bordered the chicken coop just 30 yards from his house. Frighteningly, this was not an uncommon theme last summer; there were several reports of 5-7 grizzlies in people’s yards at once, unwilling to move off even when shot at!

Two Mondays ago, my neighbours’ dog went missing during the night: and not just any dog, but a Great Pyrennese guard dog. He was one of three Great Pyrennese dogs they kept to guard their sheep and llamas.
The next night a second dog went missing, and by Thursday night they were no longer dog owners.

He has two small children at home and no longer feels safe on his own land: “They can’t be outside without one of us.” I ask if he’s going to get more dogs and he shakes his head. “I can’t justify the cost of getting more dogs to work like those ones did. I lost $4000 in dogs in three nights–actually much more than that, when you taken all their training into consideration".

We talk about the heartache of losing them and our love of living with dogs in general. They will get one family dog but it will come in at night, so it is safe. Sadly, this will leave his farm animals unprotected. Without saying this explicitly, he sighs as his eyes survey the paddocks with the various grazing animals, “If we have a year like last summer…”

The cougar had killed the first dog and dragged it into the bushes near their house. He found four visible beds around the area where the cat had bedded down to eat, or nap. He described finding the dog half buried in the bushes, “cached under some dirt and leaves, it was.” It had eaten the front half of the dog by the time Clarence (tracker friend) found it: “From his rib cage on down to the tail was all that was left of that poor dog.It took the cougar twelve days to eat three huge dogs.

Since hunting season for cougar closed at the end of April and doesn’t open again until mid-September, our local hunters could not go after the cougar.

In the above case the conservancy officer agreed to kill it and managed to dispatch it but it required a lot of paperwork. And that is one among many situations.

These are not big ranchers but smallholders. Often one spouse will work in a nearby town the other runs the farm/small holding.
The carnivores do not just kill an animal they will kill several and take a bite out of the odd one. They destroy fences and chicken coops and barns. Fear of man has been lost and this means that the animals stray outside park borders because they know that nothing will happen.

I am acquainted with filmmakers beliefs l have mixed with them in the past we have done some filming for the BBC and the director had done wildlife work so we talked a fair bit during breaks, and as l say l do know an African camera man. l do not know if l could stand by. I also know that many out of sight of the camera and in sotto voices most wildlife cameramen say they have done things to help animals just try not to make a habit out of it or let word get out.

Re: Flying Guest

Cat Woman — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:13:32 GMT

[quote user="Bouncyfi"]

"a definition of the word pest is an annoying, often destructive creature"

Doesn't that describe humans????

[/quote]

Hmm. Think that is most of our clients!!

Re: Flying Guest

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:07:53 GMT

Before you accuse me of being softhearted because I 'buy my food from a supermarket' let me assure you that I was born and raised on a farm. I know how it is for farmers and I still feel that no animal is a pest. If you want to blame anyone blame the human species for what we have done to make them that way. Foxes are here because of us, so are red squirrels. Pidgeons are abundent because of our filthy habits with trash and our erradication of the Peregrine Falcon who is their natural predator.

With regard to the crows, well they are doing what is natural for them. As mean as you might think it is, they are supposed to go after young prey who can not get away. That is what they do. Just the same as a Lion hunting a baby gazzelle ect ect.

The elephent culling is another man made problem. We have boxed in populations and we are now finding that they have no where else to go.

As much as you think we have rights to this earth, to possess it...well that just proves my point. The arrogance of that statement mystifys me. It is because of that arrogance that we now have the majority of problems we have with the planet and the animals upon it. I say it is our duty to preserve the planet, and its animals, rather then try to dominate it because we think we are better.

With regards to farmers in North American with livestock being preyed upon, I hope you realise that they are compensated through the government for any losses sustatined by wolves. As far as the bears and cougars go this is not as widespread a problem as you would like to think. Farmers have their ways of defending their livestock and no it doesn not always invovle killing the animal. They have very good hearding dogs, and yes even guardian donkeys who keep them at bay most of the time.

I grew up in one of the isolated parts of the States and I can tell you when I heard that they were reintroducing grey wolves to the adarondaks near where I lived I was ecstatic. This was a very positive step they took, and hopefully with them in Yellowstone as well it will cut down on the deaths of elk that drown trying to cross frozen rivers in search of depleted food sources.

Nature is indeed a cruel place sometimes. However, it is nature. No animal can be truely wild if we are running around behind them nursemaiding them. This is one of the core beleifs of wildlife film makers and photographers - do not interfere, no matter what.

Re: Flying Guest

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:49:45 GMT

Should ad l have no problem with crows and magpies eating carrion and cleaning up dead bodies from roadkill or natural death, in this role they fill an importaint niche. The problem is that they attack other animals and eat them as above. And thanks to human farming methods they have grown to huge populations and need controlling.

Re: Flying Guest

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:42:31 GMT

I am sure that the farmers who have crows and magpies peck their animals to death or peck out eyes and other soft body parts are in full agreement with you.
I am sure that the red squirrel population that has been decimated by the grey is happy to agree with you.

As has been stated the wild is not a pretty place but the problem is that people live with blinkers on. In outlying farms in America and Canada there is massive problems with wildlife. Cougars, bears, coyotes are attacking farm animals because they are easy prey and the farmers can do nothing unless a human is directly threatened by the animal.Thanks to the tree hugging brigade and much of the killing is not food killing.

Yes there is an upset in the balance of life but it can not be brushed under the carpet it has to be faced. I have no problem with carefully thought out and executed culls.
In Africa herds of elephants have been culled, the outside world goes mad and do not take into account the amount of food these animals eat and so deprive other animals off. And you can not relocate adult elephants easily as they will cross huge areas to get back to old grounds causing destruction and danger.

I may add that the shooters l know/knew loved animals and it tore them up but they did it because they understood the environment and how fragile it is. They did not shoot for sport but to protect the environment. Left to themselves would it be better for animals to starve? after all that is more natural.
I also do all l can for the animal which is very often PTS on the grounds l have previously stated in an earlier answer. A lot of that would depend on the abundance of that species. if it is a pigeon l have no problem dispatching it. Pigeons spread disease and breed like rabbits. If it is an owl (as the other day) l do all l can for it. They are rarer and help the environment.

As to humans l disagree with the way everyone is getting regnant as their right l firmly believe it is not their right because they affect the planet l live on and the species already there. (l now await screams of outrage from every parent on here and stand by my comment)

It is easy to live in a town, buy your food at a supermarket and live a cushy life. This may give those who think farmers are cruel something to think about.
By your terms the piglet should have been left to die slowly as to interfere is a human emotion and the crows and magpies who do the same should be allowed to grow to plague proportions and do as they wish, the situation below happened a couple of months ago and is why crows and magpies and for those who wonder why certain animals are looked on as pests:

I was carrying the first of the feed buckets through the byre and out to the pigs for their evening meal when I heard a piglet screaming at the top of the hill.

I dropped the buckets and ran all the way to the top of the hill, expecting to find Doris sitting or lying on one of her offspring.

Instead, I found three crows flapping about an isolated piglet, pecking at it and cawing excitedly while Doris tried to urge the rest of her litter back inside the hut.

I shouted at the crows and waved my arms, but they ignored me until I vaulted over the fence and into the pen.

As they flapped off, I could see the piglet was in a very bad way.

Both eyes were missing, blood was running out its mouth, and its bottom had been pecked open.

I took it down the byre and put it down as humanely as I could.

Re: Flying Guest

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:37:16 GMT

[quote user="Bouncyfi"]

"a definition of the word pest is an annoying, often destructive creature"

Doesn't that describe humans????

[/quote]

That was my point without actually stating it, yes :)

Re: Flying Guest

Fiona Leathers — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:36:35 GMT

"a definition of the word pest is an annoying, often destructive creature"

Doesn't that describe humans????

Re: Flying Guest

A Little TLC — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:57:28 GMT

[quote user="AHogarth"]

I hope I dont sound harsh with this, I'm really not meaning to be so I hope you'll forgive me. Whether an animal is considered to be a pest by the majority of the human species does not in any way mean that their lives have no worth. They are living creatures and all animals have a place on this earth. The only reason they are pests is solely down to human intervention. It is not their fault, it is ours. I have never agreed with anyone calling any animal a pest. If ever I find an injured animal be it a pidgeon, mag pie, or a bat I would always do my utmost to help it in anyway I could. It worries me to hear people's opinions of these so called 'pests' and think that its ok to just kill the whole lot of them. You know it wasnt too long ago that people thought carrier pidgeons, Snow Leopards, Imperial Parrots, wolves and many many other animals species were concidered pets by one society or another and all of them are either extinct or endangered. In the UK alone every carnivore that existed was made extinct because they were labelled 'pests' thus leading for the need to hold yearly hunts or culls to keep the deer and other prey species from starving to death. That is not nature.

I should point out that a definition of the word pest is an annoying, often destructive creature. In natural settings no other animal is as destructive in their environment without contributing something back to it thus preventing is endangerment than humans themselves. Something to think about maybe.

[/quote]

here here, couldn't have put it better myself!!

Re: Flying Guest

Kiahanna — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:54:40 GMT

I hope I dont sound harsh with this, I'm really not meaning to be so I hope you'll forgive me. Whether an animal is considered to be a pest by the majority of the human species does not in any way mean that their lives have no worth. They are living creatures and all animals have a place on this earth. The only reason they are pests is solely down to human intervention. It is not their fault, it is ours. I have never agreed with anyone calling any animal a pest. If ever I find an injured animal be it a pidgeon, magpie, or a bat I would always do my utmost to help it in anyway I could. It worries me to hear people's opinions of these so called 'pests' and think that its ok to just kill the whole lot of them. You know it wasnt too long ago that people thought carrier pigeons, Snow Leopards, Imperial Parrots, wolves and many many other animals species were considered pests by one society or another and all of them are either extinct or endangered. In the UK alone every carnivore that existed was made extinct because they were labelled 'pests' thus leading for the need to hold yearly hunts or culls to keep the deer and other prey species from starving to death. That is not nature.

Re: Flying Guest

A Little TLC — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:50:00 GMT

haha!! herroooh! xx

Re: Flying Guest

Kim Buckley — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:41:56 GMT

Hi TLC!

Just worked out who you are hehe XxX

Re: Flying Guest

A Little TLC — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 15:23:03 GMT

One of the advantages of Tiggs is can keep permenants. So nothing is ever regarded as a 'pest'. i like it that way

Re: Flying Guest

humanenurse — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:35:13 GMT

Woah there, I see your points. I did assume that most wildlife could be treated, and didn't know about them being pests. But thats for the info.

Re: Flying Guest

Caro Laithwaite VN — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:43:42 GMT

The reality is that wildlife are not pets. People loose sight of that. The first consideration should be for the animal and it's rehab not the human feelings the sad thing is that people put their feelings all to often over the animal. When a vet takes the decision to put wildlife down they take it for the animals sake but it is perceived by those many times who should know better (ie people involved in the veterinary profession not members of the public) as being cruel or mean as "only a broken wing" or "only a broken leg" or "only a wound"

In a dedicated wildlife hospital like St Tiggs and Stapley in Cheshire it is a whole different ball game, l am sure that even there, for every animal they save they take the decision to put down many others.

Is it feasible to look after it.
What is it's injuries will keeping it alive cause it more stress on a wild animal than is fair for that animal.
Are the conditions to treat it available.
That means at a set place not going to and from work and the stress of travel.
Food, and ability to correct feed when needed and at each stage of life.
Area to keep it, quiet, secluded.
Temperature controlled facilities if needed.
Rehab ability of person looking after it post recovery, this is a wild animal NOT a pet.
Is it permitted for the animal to be released, by law certain animals are not. Magpies are looked at as a pest species and actively killed by farmers.
Is the person doing the caring knowledgeable about the species good intentions is not a good reason. If you do not know your species then you should not be raising or rehabilitating it unless it is being done under the supervision of a person experienced in what is going on.

Re: Flying Guest

A Little TLC — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:49:05 GMT

It is at Tiggys, but then being soley a wildlife hosp its much easier....

Re: Flying Guest

humanenurse — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:42:40 GMT

I know, but i'd rather that then it get eaten a little by the neighbourhood cats. I thought a broken wing was treatable with rehab :(