Europe, in or out?

RE: Europe, in or out?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 18 Jun 2016 12:12:49 GMT

was thinking about this last night while trying to get to sleep - would a brexit have any impact on pet passports and the movement generally of animals? Could we see a return of quarrantine?

RE: Europe, in or out?

Sal the 1st — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 19:36:10 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

You see it all the time in the way that politicians emerge to be interviewed (especially prior to election) and use the exact words as each other. I find it hugely annoying, that.

[/quote]

so you have noticed the repetition reinforcement being used too. Far more interesting watching some of them with the sound off and even tho you can't hear the words you can tell instantly when somebody is saying something they don't absolutely believe in by just watching the non verbals - some are better at covering it than others but they all have their 'tells'

RE: Europe, in or out?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 09:48:27 GMT

[quote user="David Gibbins"]there Is a common myth that without the EU we would somehow be able to return to the industrial giant we used to be the late 1800s early 1900s.[/quote]

But I'm not suggestion we would! We can't compete with the cheap labour elsewhere. But we're very good at all sorts of other things.

[quote user="David Gibbins"]Refugee numbers have nothing to do with eu, that's international law.[/quote]

I don't think refugee numbers are the issue here. We take very few. The issue is completely unfettered freedom of movement of 500M people in the EU, leading to an massive migration of people from countries with lower-performing economies to countries with higher performing ones.

[quote user="David Gibbins"]lived in Yeovil for a while too)[/quote] That brings back painful memories of my wife's (numerous) driving tests!

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I can't decide if they are doing that because they really don't feel the average bod has the intelligence to understand[/quote]

I think they are doing it on the basis that if you say something (simple) often enough and loud enough, people will start to believe it.

You see it all the time in the way that politicians emerge to be interviewed (especially prior to election) and use the exact words as each other. I find it hugely annoying, that.

Still, the Remainians have been banging on about the danger of leaving for so long that even I am going to find the pen hovering over their box, despite being instinctively a Brexiteer.

RE: Europe, in or out?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:50:11 GMT

there are lots of myths - including the one that if we leave everything will instantly change overnight - it won't.

I reckon if everybody just votes for the side that they believe best represents their own personal priorities (we all have them and we are all different), the smaller picture if you like rather than the 10x lifesize lurid bigger picture with all the hidden meanings then at least the vote will be honest. I am fed up with listening to politicians making things as complicated as they possibly can - I can't decide if they are doing that because they really don't feel the average bod has the intelligence to understand , which to me is pretty demeaning OR that the average bod actually understands only too well and to maintain the mystique and their positions they have to dress it up a bit and chuck in a few smoke screens and diversions

RE: Europe, in or out?

David Gibbins — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:07:01 GMT

there Is a common myth that without the EU we would somehow be able to return to the industrial giant we used to be the late 1800s early 1900s.

this overlooks the fact that our domestic industry was failing from the 1900s onwards (especially coal and steel) with successive governments having to shut it down and artificially fund it to keep it afloat. The second world war gave us an artificial boost to industry but that began dissipating quickly.

Immigration is not as bad as the media hypes, and we have always been a cosmopolitan nation ironically the greatest increase in immigration has come from outside the EU.

Refugee numbers have nothing to do with eu, that's international law.

I'm from the west country too ( Blandford, lived in Yeovil for a while too)

RE: Europe, in or out?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 10:07:47 GMT

[quote user="David Gibbins"]The whole affair has been a disaster of media "friendly" headlines and fear mongering from both camps.[/quote]

I agree.

[quote user="David Gibbins"]The immigration issue has been blown out of proportion.[/quote]

I don't know about that. I mean, I live in the tiny Somerset village of Mells, where immigration does not seem to be having a marked impact on our lives. Not sure if I would feel differently if I lived in an area with a huge immigrant population where children all speak different languages at school.

I genuinely don't know. The only thing I do feel strongly about is that completely unfettered freedom of movement amongst 500M people is crazy. I'm all for 'ease of movement' but total freedom seems nuts.

[quote user="David Gibbins"]we will just a crazy island with failing economy[/quote]

Where do you get that from? Our economy is outperforming most (all?) in the EU. Arguably we're being held back by the EU.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]but to me fortune favours the brave.[/quote]

That's how I feel. I'm just asking myself how brave I'm feeling! (or how lucky)

www.youtube.com/watch

[quote user="David Gibbins"]what worries me is that the small amount freed up from our EU subscription ( even the pessimistic amount of £380million to be a member is tiny when compared to what we as a nation blow money on) will just vanish within our already mismanaged bureaucracy.[/quote]

Quite possibly. But the point is we can vote out a government that we feel mismanages our money. The same cannot be said of EU bureaucrats.

RE: Europe, in or out?

David Gibbins — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:28:30 GMT

what worries me is that the small amount freed up from our EU subscription ( even the pessimistic amount of £380million to be a member is tiny when compared to what we as a nation blow money on) will just vanish within our already mismanaged bureaucracy.

I just wish that the two groups would actually tell the truth as opposed to this awful media farce that is just candidates for the next general election posturing at each other.

it's becoming increasingly hard for people to make informed choice either way

if we ran clinics like they run their campaigns the RCVS would hang us

RE: Europe, in or out?

Ems — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 17:58:39 GMT

For now I'm voting to leave the EU - I'm hoping as a country we'll have more money to spend on our own problems and become a bit more like the Scandinavian countries which have better work/life balances. I know there are a few laws/regulations which we benefit from being in the EU but I'm assuming these won't completely disappear? I'm assuming we'll keep the ones that work well...

RE: Europe, in or out?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 13:27:09 GMT

fascinating area agreed, I don't like the way the media has been used for mis information and scare tactics - much of what I learnt came from a politician or two. Also agree with you on immigration, but to me fortune favours the brave.

RE: Europe, in or out?

David Gibbins — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 13:21:51 GMT

But I am lucky in that a lot of my friends work in politics/security careers, and attended many lectures at uni. It's a fascinating area.

RE: Europe, in or out?

David Gibbins — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 13:19:12 GMT

we have benefited so much from being in the eu that I cannot see any benefit to staying that is not the typical sabre rattling the brexit camp are using.

this whole issue has been handled in an appalling manor, and putting it to referendum is possibly a mistake, ultimately the majority of the public have little understanding of international politics or the workings of government.

The whole affair has been a disaster of media "friendly" headlines and fear mongering from both camps.

The immigration issue has been blown out of proportion.

In the end we stand a better chance of helping improve things for everyone globally if we remain in. If we leave, we will just a crazy island with failing economy unable to compete with the rising far east.

RE: Europe, in or out?

Sal the 1st — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 12:28:29 GMT

one of my main reasons for favouring the leave camp is the CAP ( Common Agricultural Policy). CAP takes up over 40% of EU budget expenditure, it supports inefficient farming practices, encourages overproduction, over use of pesticides and field dressings and keeps the cost of food high. It mostly benefits the bigger producers with around 20% of producers getting over 70% of available subsidies. So the smaller farms are often driven out of existence - it is destroying the countryside and livelihoods and encouraging intensive farming methods, which in the case of livestock, is encouraging some very dubious welfare.

Overproduction

http://www.fwi.co.uk/arable/world-record-oilseed-rape-yield-smashed-in-lincolnshire.htm

either results in set aside (which in turn results in planning applications to build in rural areas which are not suitable for development- so you get farmers being paid set aside for land and then flogging off the same land as building plots , there are no hard up farmers round by me I can promise you) or dumping of excess on developing countries which then under cuts their local producers who cannot compete, and affects their economy. So not content with buggering up our own countryside and driving some of our own small producers to the wall we gift the same fate to other poorer nations who are not member states.

Another reason I favour leave is the CFP (Common Fisheries Policy) which decides fishing quotas. The CFP has destroyed the fishing industry in this country.In common with the CAP it has kept fish prices high, encouraged larger scale commercial fishing driving smaller operations out. It is wasteful as catches over the quota cannot be landed and are thrown back - the fish are either dead or soon will be. It benefits nobody

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2854348/One-Dutch-trawler-gets-quarter-England-s-entire-fish-quota-English-fishermen-allowed-two-crates-worth-50.html

ok maybe I don't look at things the same as some of you - and thats the point really we are all different and we all have different priorities.

I feel that leaving will encourage us to urgently re evaluate what is and what isn't working and look different ways of doing things - the NHS being a prime example it simply isn't sustainable in its current wasteful state. (example - my mother is on multiple medications for a complicated heart problem, she needs a repeat prescription of only 2 of the 9 medications she takes because it seems nobody at the GP practice she attends can work out that they are only dispensing 2 weeks of these medications and a month of the other 7. So she requests a repeat prescription saying that she only requires these two medications . GP practice issue a script that goes straight through to pharmacist who delivers it to her door and low and behold all 9 meds with only 2 weeks of the two she is short of. I have spoken to the GP practice, she has spoken to the GP practice, her nurse has spoken to the GP practice. Pharmacy wont take them back for re use and GP practice apparently cannot alter a script to ensure that all tablets run out at the same time. If this is happening all over the country.....

RE: Europe, in or out?

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 10:43:34 GMT

[quote user="kerryfeehan"]my opinion seems to change daily[/quote]

Ha - mine changes about 5 times a day, sometimes more!

[quote user="kerryfeehan"]Really!! I can't say t1tts?!!!![/quote]

Oops - sorry - bit of overly prudish default software settings. I think we can allow tits, but may take a while for the change to take effect.

[quote user="Cloudy Weather"]As vet nurses EU policy benefits us a lot in terms of protecting our rights for maximum working hours, paid annual leave, fair treatment for part time workers and gender equality in the workplace (to name just a few).[/quote]

Cloudy Weather I just don't buy the argument that we have to be part of an undemocratic, distant institution to have strong rights for workers.

I mean, if we vote out and a government starts removing all those rights, we can just vote them out. We don't have that choice with the EU.

[quote user="Cloudy Weather"]Also at a time where many politicians and campaigns are fuelling xenophobia[/quote]

Again, I'm not sure this is fair. I am a 3rd generation immigrant myself. I'm a Russian-Scottish-Alsace Lorraine-Armenian! I love the rich variety that immigrants bring to this country. I love the ease with which one can travel, work and live within Europe. I do believe that immigrants are probably net contributors.

I just DON'T believe that absolutely uncontrolled free movement of people is a good idea. There has to be a limit.

[quote user="Cloudy Weather"]I feel it is more important than ever that countries stay united and continue to work together.[/quote]

ABSOLUTELY agree, but don't feel it is necessary to be part of the EU to achieve this.

[quote user="Cloudy Weather"]Immigration supports the NHS[/quote]

Much said about this, and the stat that stood out for me was on the BBC the other night, which is that the number of immigrants employed by the NHS is broadly in proportion to the number of immigrants in the general population. i.e. if we don't need to import more to meet demand.

I might vote in all the same. Why? Because there simply hasn't been enough proper research into the possible negative consequences of 'out' on the economy. And an out decision may be irreversible (to get out is our decision, if we later go 'oops - that was a mistake', we have to be accepted back in by all the other 28 member states).

In other words, I want democracy back. I want efficiency back (daft sending all that money over to Brussels in order for them to decide by committee how it is spent). But I want to know what these things are going to cost me, and without that, things just aren't bad enough to take the risk, I think.

(But I'll be back out in 10 minutes!)

RE: Europe, in or out?

Cloudy Weather — Sat, 11 Jun 2016 08:57:57 GMT

I think leaving the EU is quite a concerning prospect. As vet nurses EU policy benefits us a lot in terms of protecting our rights for maximum working hours, paid annual leave, fair treatment for part time workers and gender equality in the workplace (to name just a few). A lot of the politicians running the Brexit campaign (and many in recent governments) have campaigned for the control to be in the hand of the employer and I would be very concerned this would see a lot of our current employment rights lost.

Also at a time where many politicians and campaigns are fuelling xenophobia, I feel it is more important than ever that countries stay united and continue to work together. Our grandfathers died for peace in Europe and the EU is a step closer to collaboration and alliance between different nations. We may not favour every policy passed but there are so many more that benefit us and at least being in the EU means we are part of these discussions and we are working with countries for a better world.

It feels that many in the Brexit campaign rely on the public’s lack of knowledge about the facts about immigration to push forward their arguments. We should not forget that we rely on the free movement of people within the EU. Immigration supports the NHS, allows the veterinary profession to hire the best talent from within the EU and equally allows us to travel and work within the rest of EU without restriction.

RE: Europe, in or out?

Noodle — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 22:57:05 GMT

I'm an innie... As I understand it the working time directive is one of the ways in which the EU has directly benefited us. I believe we were a large part of the Human Rights act way back when, Captain Jean Luc Picard Patrick Stewart has done a Pythonesque skit about it on youtube

RE: Europe, in or out?

kerryfeehan — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:26:15 GMT

Really!! I can't say t1tts?!!!!

RE: Europe, in or out?

kerryfeehan — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 21:25:44 GMT

my opinion seems to change daily but leaning more towards leave. I'm sure if it goes *** up we can re-join?! hell they might let Turkey in so I'm sure they would let us back in!

RE: Europe, in or out?

Sal the 1st — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 08:34:12 GMT

still pretty much for leaving yet to be convinced otherwise - I just wish both sides would quit resorting to scare tactics and spinning figures to suit their needs tho because all that does is confuse and leave people with no confidence in any of them.

Funnily enough just watching the non verbals (body language if you like) of all the people presenting the one that really stands out for me as somebody who really believes in what they are saying is John Major , with most of the others I have watched there are been a number of incongruencies (tells)

RE: Europe, in or out?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 07:16:51 GMT

.... a few weeks later ... Anyone changed their mind? I'm still a fence sitter. In fact, I'm increasingly sure I'll still be thinking 'I don't know, you tell me' on the day. Seems unfair that there isn't a 'don't know' option in the referendum, especially given what a horlicks both sides have made of presenting their case so far.

RE: Europe, in or out?

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 23:30:56 GMT

Undecided but veering towards stay

RE: Europe, in or out?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 10:46:25 GMT

Personally, I'd like to stay, but I can't vote in the referendum as I am not a British citizen. Can I stay, please?

RE: Europe, in or out?

SmegSlayer — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 14:14:55 GMT

I don't know enough right now.

If we left would we have access to the European Court of Human Rights? (relevant to me and my MSc at the moment)

and what about the working time directive- is that from Europe? I know of some practices that make you sign a waiver to it as part of your contract (there is no amount of money in the world that would make me do this!)

RE: Europe, in or out?

Sal the 1st — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 10:53:21 GMT

my preference is leaving at the moment, after weighing up the pros and cons unless somebody pulls something fantastic out of the hat, and somehow I just don't see that happening. Yes there are benefits from staying but as I see it a lot more benefits from leaving. Will it force a second referendum? I think it could. I think Cameron is the fool to underestimate and poke fun at Boris - the carefully constructed public persona is a disguise for somebody a whole lot smarter than he is.

The deal Cameron has just struck is nothing more than fluff and bluster as I see it. Still watching with interest the antics of both sides using scare tactics. Just to be clear I am not supporting individuals.

RE: Europe, in or out?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Feb 2016 09:37:07 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]even Doris has picked a side to fall onto from his perch[/quote]

uh? Who is Doris?!

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I know what I would like to happen but doubt it will[/quote]

Leave?

[quote user="kerryfeehan"]I don't feel I know enough to make a decision[/quote]

Exactly how I (and I suspect most of the country) feel. Problem is the argument at the moment is:

Stay = More of the same, which isn't exactly that bad, and it does have its benefits.

Leave = Nobody knows. Looks to me like a 50/50 bet that things could be better or worse, and they could be considerably better ... or worse.

Given the risk of 'worse', I'm not sure the risk is worth taking.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]those cats get in everywhere[/quote]

I'm going to fix that. I'm glad to say we are in the final stages of the big upgrade to VetNurse. It's taken longer than expected to get there, but the big things are free CPD and a massively improved job section ...

RE: Europe, in or out?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:33:25 GMT

those cats get in everywhere I had to edit a couple of posts last week