Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 20:10:57 GMT

[quote user="Selena (Hypnorm) Carnell VN"]Kind of agree with Sal. Not everything can be explained with science.[/quote]

But Selena, do you think we even need science to prove whether or not a dilution of 1 part welsh placenta (or hadrian's wall for that matter) to 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 of water is an effective treatment for anything?

I am GENUINELY not trying to be offensive here. I just find it fascinating that you could argue that it might work (which is what you seem to be saying by 'not everything can be explained by science').

When you DO look at the science (have you read the evidence we've put together on the microsite?), the latest thing is a study of no less than 225 independently selected homeopathy trials, which when analysed together (a meta analysis, which is the most robust method of scientific testing) proved homeopathy does not work.

I completely agree with you that there are lots of things that cannot yet be explained by science (and perhaps never will). But when they are, like the world isn't a spinning disc, and the moon isn't made out of cheese, we have to be prepared to accept it!

Personally, I think the reason why so many people do believe in homeopathy is because of confirmation bias - the very strong impulse we have to interpret information in a way that confirms our preconceptions. By which I mean, we give a pill, we get better, so it must have been the pill. The reality, of course, is that there are lots of other reasons why we could have got better, and the ONLY way to test reliably whether it was the pill or not is through randomised, double blind trials conducted amongst statistically significant numbers of people.

That's now been done, countless times, to test whether homeopathy works. It doesn't.

Bottom line, is that the impulse to believe ourselves is incredibly powerful, and very often we are wrong.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Selena Carnell — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 19:12:34 GMT

Sorry won't be signing, I've worked with a homeopathic vet who has used both conventional and alternative therapies. Kind of agree with Sal. Not everything can be explained with science.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 12:17:51 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Sometimes in order for you to get the client to join you in your reality (conventional medicine) you have to join them however fleetingly in their reality ( which in this case would be homeopathic medicine). I would rather do this and the animal is treated [/quote]

I take your point. Actually, I don't entirely disagree, and there's nothing in our petition to stop you doing that. We just argue that it should be against a background of an official RCVS statement, and better client information.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Sal the 1st — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 09:58:22 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]actually I don't - perhaps you missed that bit?[/quote]

I just meant in the sense that acquiescing gives tacit endorsement. If trained professionals aren't prepared to stand up and say 'no, it is not acceptable to treat an animal with something proven not to work', it gives it legitimacy.

[/quote]

Sometimes in order for you to get the client to join you in your reality (conventional medicine) you have to join them however fleetingly in their reality ( which in this case would be homeopathic medicine). I would rather do this and the animal is treated

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 09:35:59 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]actually I don't - perhaps you missed that bit?[/quote]

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Sal the 1st — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 09:32:12 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I'm surprised at your position, Sal. I just don't understand how someone of your experience could condone the practice of selling water as medicine

[/quote]

actually I don't - perhaps you missed that bit?

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 27 Nov 2015 07:26:56 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]but sorry I still feel when its a case of encouraging people to pick sides ie for them to become winners or losers depending on which side they pick ....[/quote]

Sal, you make it sound like we're asking people to pick a football team, or a politician to support!

We're not. We're asking people to consider the facts, and make a decision about the ethics of prescribing a dilution of 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000 (or whatever the number is, it hardly matters) of welsh placenta (or hadrian's wall, or condoms, or take your pick of anything, really) to water and giving it to an animal that cannot make that choice for itself.

It's not about 'winners and losers'.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]well its not that clear cut[/quote]

The science is :)

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]a sizeable number will still find sitting on the fence the most comfortable position[/quote]

People often find the fence is the safest place to sit. People used to joke that my own Dad had a line across his backside from fence sitting. But the evidence is now so overwhelming, that this fence has become morally precarious!

I'm surprised at your position, Sal. I just don't understand how someone of your experience could condone the practice of selling water as medicine for the treatment of an animal that is reliant on humans to provide it with effective treatment. Particularly in the face of evidence which shows that owners (even vets) will often believe themselves to have seen an effect when there hasn't been (with clear welfare consequences for the animal).

I can only think that you're a fence sitter yourself; you think there might be something in homeopathy? Is that the case? Have you read the evidence on the microsite?

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Have you considered taking your campaign to an even wider audience?[/quote]

My hope is that we'll win support in the veterinary arena (I'm confident we will), and that message will then go out to the wider public.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Sal the 1st — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 19:48:51 GMT

well I hope your passion is rewarded, but sorry I still feel when its a case of encouraging people to pick sides ie for them to become winners or losers depending on which side they pick ..... well its not that clear cut and a sizeable number will still find sitting on the fence the most comfortable position. Have you considered taking your campaign to an even wider audience?

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:40:07 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]The NHS position on homeopathy - homeopathy is still available on the NHS[/quote]

Lets be clear, the NHS says clearly that homeopathy is both implausible and proven no more effective than placebo in humans: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/homeopathy/pages/introduction.aspx

That is essentially what our petition calls for, a public position statement from the College.

As to being available on the NHS, probably not for much longer: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/homeopathy/pages/introduction.aspx

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Off the top of my head without doing a google search there was the child last year or year before who was removed from hospital and was eventually found in France - because the parents didn't believe that staying in hospital gave it the best chance of survival so they kidnapped it against medical advice went on the run in search of an alternative. [/quote]

Not sure this is a good example, because these parents wanted to give their child another rational, science-based form of medicine. I might have done the same in their shoes.

Still, I guess there will ALWAYS be people who elect to travel a different path. Steve Jobs is one who placed his faith in alternative medicine, and that didn't get him very far either.

But is that an argument for not doing one's best to educate the masses when there is clear, incontrovertible evidence that something does not work? For every person who feels alienated by the message that homeopathy is ineffective, and does not - as a result - seek veterinary care (and I would imagine this number to be a very small one), how many more have you saved from ineffective treatment, false hope, ineffective use of their hard earned money (which could have been spent on improving their life in some other way).

Also, looking at the bigger picture, if one educates people, the practice will die out over time. In the same way that blood letting and all manner of other discredited medical practice has died out. Society will have taken a step forward.

I know i keep banging on about it, but there is the impact on humans to be considered here. Tolerating water as a veterinary medicine just perpetuates the idea there might be something in it, which affects the decisions people make with regard to their own health, with even more dangerous consequences, as Steve Jobs discovered to his regret.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Many complementary therapies do not have a scientific background [/quote]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]will acupuncture be the next to come under attack after homeopathy?[/quote]

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]My other (non veterinary) therapies include hypnotherapy - again very little scientific evidence around for that one, so guess I must be working well into the realms of rainbows and unicorns , and NLP which has absolutely no scientific background well that must be absolutely pure magic[/quote]

We're focussing on homeopathy at this stage, because it has been scientifically disproven. I don't know much about these other things (hypnotherapy / acupuncture / NLP), but as far as I am aware, they have not been scientifically disproven.

When it comes to looking at other things, the question is not whether or not something yet has scientific evidence (lots of things don't), but first to consider the rationality / plausibility of it. The more irrational or implausible it is, the greater the need for evidence to prove it works. And if there is scientific evidence disproving something, as in the case of homeopathy, then clearly it needs to be looked at!

[quote user="Sal the 1st"] defending the right to use /seek complementary therapy without being made to feel the villian/idiot[/quote]

I agree with you, and would defend that right to the hilt. It is not for me or anyone else to prevent you from seeking whatever treatment you want for yourself (provided within the laws of the land). There's a slight caveat to that. There is a need for taxpayer funded medicine to be backed by proof of efficacy (already happens, and I suspect the reason for homeopathy being excused so long is more political than anything else), so whilst I defend your choice to use an unproven alternative medicine, I defend my right not to have to pay for it!

Animals, of course, are a slightly different kettle of fish. They can't say 'stop giving me that bloody water and pretending it'll make a difference'. Worse still, there's the PROVEN caregiver placebo effect, where the caregiver persuades themself (confirmation bias) that something is effective, when in reality, it is not and the patient continues to suffer. It is unethical to give animals things we know are ineffective.

I don't want to brand people who seek alternative therapy as villains or fools. But I feel passionately (particularly as the parent of a very sick child myself), that people need to be INFORMED.

I think there are many people out there who think homeopathy sounds vaguely medical, that it's been around a long time, that there are doctors and vets who use it, so there must be something in it. I was speaking to a very high powered medical professional the other day whose first reaction when I asked for their view on homeopathy was: "I don't like it because it's not tested for side effects" - clearly demonstrating that even they didn't know that homeopathy = water! If a leading Dr doesn't know, how on earth is the man on the street supposed to know?

Yes, tolerance is important. Tolerance of someone's right to make a decision when they have the facts in front of them.

But animals can't make these kinds of decision. I do not think it is right to tolerate ineffective medicine being given to an animal purely because of a disproven human 'belief'.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Sal the 1st — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:23:49 GMT

sorry didn't have chance to read the comments and reply to this last night

Of the two campaigns - yes Arlo yours does have a tiny degree of tolerance in that it isn't for an all out ban

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

A position statement from the RCVS, along the lines of that already published by the NHS. Has the NHS position statement driven people away from their doctor? I am certainly not aware of any evidence of that. I'm sure the media would have picked up on it if it were true.

[/quote]

The NHS position on homeopathy - homeopathy is still available on the NHS. There are GPs who use homeopathy alongside conventional medicine just as their are vets but as far as I am aware (and I stand to be corrected) there is no signing of a bit of paper telling the patient that their choice of treatment is 'wrong'.

The NHS statement driving patients away? Well it shouldn't really should it? After all the treatment is 'free' (and this is why comparing veterinary treatment to NHS treatment is not a reasonable comparison - veterinary treatment, unless through a charity is a paid for service. Pet owners pay for the service and they make their choice. They are more likely to use a service provided by a group of people that share their belief system than a service where they are basically being asked to sign a disclaimer, so yes I can see where this will drive some people away from veterinary practice. Incidentally there are cases where this happens in humans and they do attract a good deal of media attention when they happen. Off the top of my head without doing a google search there was the child last year or year before who was removed from hospital and was eventually found in France - because the parents didn't believe that staying in hospital gave it the best chance of survival so they kidnapped it against medical advice went on the run in search of an alternative.

The majority of homeopathic treatments, from my experience, are used in conjunction with conventional medicine not as a stand alone.

I am a complementary practitioner. Do I believe in homeopathy? - the answer would be as a medicine no, but as a remedy (ie a 'solution' -pun intended/not intended take your pick- to a problem yes it has its uses and if using it in veterinary practice ensures that an animal is seen by a qualified veterinary surgeon and homeopathy is offered alongside conventional treatment when requested by the client I do not see a problem)

Many complementary therapies do not have a scientific background . I use acupuncture (in humans) - depending on whether your preference is Eastern or Western the scientific proof of how it works varies from dodgy to very dodgy depending what you read and where you read it (meridians nobody can see, triple burner system anyone???), and yet vets are signing up for training and using acupuncture in practice with good results - will acupuncture be the next to come under attack after homeopathy?

My other (non veterinary) therapies include hypnotherapy - again very little scientific evidence around for that one, so guess I must be working well into the realms of rainbows and unicorns , and NLP which has absolutely no scientific background well that must be absolutely pure magic ( but again plenty of people use it both for therapy and business and have made not only millions but billions from its use).

Not everybody believes the same and if it isn't possible to accept that different people hold different beliefs then where do we stop with the 'I am right so you must be wrong' attitude?

Just to be very clear on this - I am not so much defending homeopathy more defending the right to use /seek complementary therapy without being made to feel the villian/idiot

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:15:43 GMT

[quote user="Anon Nurse"]She does some amazing work![/quote] I'm quite sure she does, just not with homeopathy, because the point is it doesn't work!

[quote user="Anon Nurse"]I doubt very much this will get banned. [/quote]

I know the other petition calls for a ban, but the one i am working on does NOT call for a ban - just for patients to be able to make an informed decision.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

WelshyNurse — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 11:11:36 GMT

I wasn't a fan of homeopathy until I worked with a fantastic homeopathic vet. She does some amazing work!

I won't be signing and I doubt very much this will get banned.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Julie-Anne Wilson — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:11:05 GMT

I just signed it. I've never been a believer of homeopathy. I used to work in a practice with a homeopathy vet and I was shocked that so many people came from all over to see her.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:42:16 GMT

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]Had to go out and find some bells,[/quote]

Well, it's nearly the time of year for them :)

Thank you very much for supporting.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Ben Ogden — Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:41:46 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Thank you Ben Ogden - but did you sign the right one?! (actually, you can sign both, but the one I'm working on is this one: http://www.vetsurgeon.org/microsites/private/rational-medicine/p/veterinary-homeopathy-petition.aspx

Your name hasn't appeared yet!

[/quote]

Had to go out and find some bells, signed up now!

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 18:44:56 GMT

Your name hasn't appeared yet!

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Ben Ogden — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:48:18 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]Sums it up nicely. [/quote]

Ben Ogden - Can I have your signature on the petition, then, please!

[/quote]

You sir can have my signature with bells on!

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:42:52 GMT

[quote user="Ben Ogden"]Sums it up nicely. [/quote]

Ben Ogden - Can I have your signature on the petition, then, please!

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Ben Ogden — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:36:37 GMT

[quote]

There is no scientific evidence to support the idea of treating a disease with a substance simply because that substance has been observed to cause similar symptoms to the disease itself. For example, that you can treat a common cold with an onion, simply because onion makes the eyes water.

[/quote]

Sums it up nicely.

Oh and I will always remember a couple of Tim Minchin lines for a well known song.

"Water has memory!
And while it's memory of a long lost drop of onion juice is Infinite
It somehow forgets all the poo its had in it!"

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Ailsa Main — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:45:00 GMT

I once nursed a cat that had anemia following being given garlic tablets "for its immune system" by the owner, because apparently "the girl in holland and barratt said it would be ok".

Of course, that isn't homeopathy at all, but I think it would be nice if people recognized that the best people to prescribe/advise/administer any kind of medicinal treatments to an animal should be registered veterinary profesionals, even if the treatment is just sugar pills and water injections, the animal should be under the care of a vet and they should be given on the vet's prescription.

I doubt that would alienate the firm believers in homeopathy, who could still give homeopathic treatments-just on prescription-but might discourage people following unqualified and dangerous advice that actually might harm their pet.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:28:36 GMT

[quote user="Anon Nurse"]We have a large client base who travel far and wide to see our homeopathic vet [/quote]

I really do sympathise with those who practice homeopathy. I don't doubt that most (although not all) genuinely believe in it. This is one reason why our petition does not call for an all out ban.

[quote user="Anon Nurse"]We have a large client base who travel far and wide to see our homeopathic vet And refuse to see anyone else. Surely the fact they are seeing a vet is important?[/quote]

I don't think homeopathic vets will always prescribe homeopathic remedies (or water, as it is more commonly known) as an adjunct or after all other rational, proven options have been exhausted. So I don't think it is necessarily better that they see a vet just because that person holds the title MRCVS.

Even if they did ONLY offer water as adjunctive treatment, it still sends a powerful and dangerous message to owners about their own healthcare (works in dogs, must work in humans).

So whilst I see where you are coming from, I disagree. It would be better to embark on a process of owner education (as our petition calls for), whilst allowing those who seek homeopathy to continue to avail themselves of it, provided they are able to make an informed decision.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

WelshyNurse — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:27:26 GMT

I hope it isn't banned.

We have a large client base who travel far and wide to see our homeopathic vet And refuse to see anyone else. Surely the fact they are seeing a vet is important?

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Sal the 1st — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:11:33 GMT

I am just leaving for work but will pick up on this again later - but

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Homeopathy is a faith-based ideology and we all know where discussions on that subject can end up. We don't even have to look as far as the Middle East for examples of that.

[/quote]

historically and currently - doesn't unrest and worse follow when you challenge faith?

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:02:00 GMT

Hi Sal,

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Just wondered how this is going to go down with clients and how it will impact on animal welfare? Do you risk driving out clients who would previously have used conventional medicine alongside homeopathy by challenging their belief system[/quote]

I don't think it will drive away clients.

I think there is that risk if YOU (ie vets and nurses working in practice) are drawn into a discussion about homeopathy with a 'believer' client. Homeopathy is a faith-based ideology and we all know where discussions on that subject can end up. We don't even have to look as far as the Middle East for examples of that.

Consider what we're asking for:

A position statement from the RCVS, along the lines of that already published by the NHS. Has the NHS position statement driven people away from their doctor? I am certainly not aware of any evidence of that. I'm sure the media would have picked up on it if it were true.
A client consent form when prescribing veterinary remedies. Actually, this really should be required already under the cascade. But that aside, we asked that it be required on prescription, so not going to drive people away.
A statement on advertising / promotion of homeopathy. Again, not going to drive people away from conventional practice.

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]Personally I would rather a diagnosis is made by a veterinary surgeon[/quote]

Absolutely. But if I am honest, not one that believes that a dilution of 1 molecule of Welsh placenta (or hadrian's wall, or light from the planet venus) in all the atoms in all the observable universe, is going to cure something.

If you read the 'About Homeopathy' page on the campaign microsite and start to appreciate how irrational homeopathy really is (even I didn't fully understand till I started researching in depth a month or two ago), I hope you'll agree that the downside of giving it your tacit endorsement (by tolerating it) is far worse.

It is unethical in the treatment of animals (which cannot, after all, make their own mind up).

It is unethical because of the presence of the 'caregiver placebo effect' (where the caregiver, be they owner, vet or nurse, believes they have seen a response to treatment attributable to the remedy, when in reality there was none, so the animal continues to suffer).

It sucks up money that could be better spent on something that really would improve the welfare of the animal or their owner.

It offers false hope.

When endorsed by a veterinary professional, it sends a dangerous message to the public (works in animals, must work in humans).

This is water sold as medicine to vulnerable people who don't know better, by people who should. It must stop.

RE: Campaign to ban veterinary homeopathy

Sal the 1st — Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:38:32 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Wanted to draw your attention to two campaigns that have just been launched by veterinary surgeons on the subject of veterinary homeopathy, and ask for your signature.

NEWS STORY: http://www.vetnurse.co.uk/b/veterinary-nursing-news/archive/2015/11/24/157580.aspx

CAMPAIGN ONE: http://www.vetsurgeon.org/microsites/private/rational-medicine/

I'm one of the people that set up this campaign (which doesn't actually call for a ban, but for the RCVS to issue a public position statement like the NHS has, patient consent forms and more closely controlled advertising).

First of all, PLEASE read the microsite. There is a lot of misunderstanding about what homeopathy actually is, and I hope I have explained it really clearly.

Secondly, PLEASE SIGN! I feel this is really important. It's time the veterinary profession moved on from a practice some guy invented in the 1700s, which has never been able to demonstrate a positive effect.

But even more important than that, think of what a strong signal a statement from an august body like the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons would send to the public about its use in human medicine. Think how much money and false hope you could potentially save vulnerable people.

I don't doubt that there will be those who disagree about this campaign, so very happy to debate here, and hope you will!

There is also a second campaign which calls for an outright ban, here:

CAMPAIGN TWO: https://www.change.org/p/the-royal-college-of-veterinary-surgeons-a-call-to-ban-veterinary-surgeons-from-prescribing-homeopathy-as-a-treatment-for-animals

They are not mutually exclusive, you can sign both, or either.

[/quote]

just repeating what I have already said on the news item -

Just wondered how this is going to go down with clients and how it will impact on animal welfare? Do you risk driving out clients who would previously have used conventional medicine alongside homeopathy by challenging their belief system - and if that happens what will then happen to their animals? It might not be ideal but at least if they bring the animal in there is a chance to do something for that animal- or will it then be a case of didn't see it so don't care?

Personally I would rather a diagnosis is made by a veterinary surgeon, and a disease process is explained by a veterinary surgeon and treatment is at least offered by a veterinary surgeon than somebody down at the local health food shop but this is what you risk.