Professional indemnity insurance

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:39:40 GMT

Hi Claire,

Here is Julian's reply.

The whole point about negligence is that you are covered by the practice policy. You are working in a team that takes joint responsibility for its actions. In the final analysis a nurse or employed vet is always under the overall control of a senior veterinary surgeon. If the practice is negligent it is the practice that is sued, not the individual nurse/vet/receptionist/kennel maid/dog groomer. VDS is a mutual insurer owned by the veterinary profession providing PI cover for veterinary practices for normal veterinary work and C&D cover for individual vets and nurses either named on a practice policy or carrying their own policy. You are in exactly the same situation as a locum vet.

Public liability insurance is a completely different type of insurance. Public and employee liability insurance are a legal requirement for any business and it is the business that is insured not the individuals working in it.

If a practice was to try and sue you for negligence they would be suing themselves. It is the practice that bills the owner and it is the practice that must have the negligence cover and the PL/EL cover.

What you need is C&D cover.

Best wishes

Julian

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 23:25:25 GMT

Great, thanks.

Ask him about professional liability /indemnity insurance though as the public liability will be covered by the practice if they have any trips, falls etc

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Alison Clare Hickman — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 22:44:32 GMT

Hi Claire,

I've sent a message to Jason to confirm whether the RVN VDS policy provides PUBLIC Liability insurance - it is this type of insurance that covers claims for (civil) negligence and pays out as appropriate (as well as providing representation). I will revert on his reply.

Ali h

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:18:02 GMT

That's really interesting reading Alison.. Thanks!

Now,however, im more confused lol

When i spoke to the vds i was told that the cover was for support and representation only and the practice can decline to extend their vds cover to you and it doesn't help cover you if they sue you themselves for some reason?

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 13 Mar 2015 20:59:34 GMT

Hi Claire (and everyone)

I have done more research on this - my apologies if I am repeating anything that you may already know. It was important to me to learn more and, as I have, I thought I'd pass it on.

I started with asking the vets on vetsurgeon.org for their (locum) PLI recommendations and was bowled over by the totally unanimous vote for VDS insurance cover. I mean 100% of a vote. Wow.

Thread details: http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/t/21738.aspx

I was contacted directly by a VDS employee who answered all my questions and clarified things for me. I have (with his permission) copied below our continuing conversation and hope it clarifies things for you. I am now satisfied that VDS insurance will indeed provide me with as much cover as it is possible to have. Unless of course anyone knows differently? - In which case, please tell me, though I have been unable to find any other cover that would pay out in the event of a conviction etc...

MY QUERY

Hello Julian,

Thanks so much for your clarifications. I think I understand now. Basically, I would be fully represented/advised and the insurance element pays out to 3rd parties as needed but not in the event of me being convicted of committing a crime, yes?

The reason for my concerns re professional liability insurance (PLI) was off the back of a thread in vetnurse.co.uk (sister to this forum) where the discussion led me to understand no s/employed RVN would be fully covered for professional liability insurance with VDS. Therefore separate PLI cover would be needed 'just in case'.

I am not currently locuming so it's not an issue for me as yet - however it will be later in the year. I have clarified it with the practices I intend to locum for and they have confirmed I am covered by their own VDS policy. However, should I still have my own cover?

So then. Is it better for me to have my own VDS insurance policy when locuming rather than relying on the practice policy? What are the advantages,if any?

I did take out my own VDS policy last year for locuming as I understood I HAD to have under the professional conduct RCVS guidelines. Was I wrong? Was I correct?

Does it differ for s/employed RVN's who have made themselves a Limited Complany rather than sole-trader (like me)?

JULIAN'S REPLY (Julian Wells)

Hi Alison by all means give me a call on my direct line 01743 361188. In answer to your bullet points in order:

Yes

RVNs working in an insured practice have the benefit of the practice PI cover for negligence claims but if self employed they will not appear on the practice schedule of insurance and so will not be covered for criminal or disciplinary (C&D) enquiries. There is a distinction between civil (negligence) cover and C&D.

As a self employed person you would be well advised to have your own cover because that provides you with the all important C&D cover. We get very few civil claims relating to the actions of RVNs but quite a number of referrals to the RCVS.

The practice policy covers the practice for your negligent acts, because if you were working in a practice it would be the practice that was sued - not you. What you need is the C&D cover to protect you from a complaint to the regulator. Therefor you would be well advised to take out your own policy.

Yes - the RCVS expects regulated persons to carry PI cover. This is not an issue for RVNs working in insured practices but as I say the practice insurance does not cover C&D for self employed individuals (vets or nurses). So you were right.

It makes no difference whether you are a sole trader or a limited company - it is your personal registration that is on the line.

MY QUERY

Don't suppose there's ANY insurer that would payout in the case of a conviction or fine/penalty of any kind in a C&D case, is there? My interest is to cover my own bottom as much as possible in todays litigious society. Better well-covered than in any way exposed to be kicked.

It would make sense, IMHO, if the need for separate VDS insurance was explained in an article in the VS & RVN press as I know there's a lot of my RVN colleagues confused by it. Similarly, practice management/partners themselves may not be giving sound advice to locum nurses as, in my experience, they are confirming the provision of VDS cover to the locum but possibly without understanding that there is a lack of provision of C&D cover. I know innocence of the law is no defence and we all have to look to our own conduct but I wouldn't want anyone to fall foul of trusting someone's well intentioned word. Would it be okay if I pass on what I've learned in vetnurse.co.uk?

JULIAN'S REPLY

You are right - you can't insure against a fine for speeding which is about the best analogy I can think of. I am disappointed there is confusion over the cover required by self employed nurses but by all means quote me and I will suggest our Newsletter editor gets to work!

In summary, my understanding is this: when locuming, so long as the practice has a VDS policy in place, you are covered for everything barring Criminal & Disciplinary proceedings. You need your own VDS cover in place for this aspect of cover.

Happy to hear more from anyone else!!

Ali H

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Sun, 08 Mar 2015 11:43:43 GMT

Hi,

If you're via an umbrella company then check your contract as lots will cover your professional indemnity as part of the package. As caro says the vds cover support and representation but will not pay out in case of any liabilities etc so you'd have to find the money if anything happened. Graybrook don't give you the same support and representation as they are not veterinary based, however if a decision went against you then they will cover £2,000,000 or £5, 000, 000 in liabilities.

I opted for vds and graybrook to get the best of both worlds to start (but for other reasons graybrook couldn't insure my company so I went umbrella for now) but as caro says it's not law, however, if the worst were to happen you can't guarantee the vets you're at will support you on their insurance, or, if they sued you for some reason then you would have no cover at all.

I would check with your umbrella to see if it's part of your package first.

Hope that helps x

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Caro Laithwaite VN — Sat, 07 Mar 2015 23:15:00 GMT

I fall under the first (sort of having a Ltd co) and l have it for safety reasons. It isnt a case of you HAVE to have it just common sense, probably never needed. The VDS was cheap enough £37 but l do get advice and advocate which grabrook doesn't have as it isnt veterinary based they are a desperate thing. You could just do greybrook or nothing or just VDS it depends which flavour you want we are all different.

As to umbrella never ask that here you have to ask the company as each will be different, a bit like clients asking if so and so ins covers them for xyz they need to speak to the companies. Not possibly what you wanted to hear but it really l think is the best way to look at it.

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

SmegSlayer — Sat, 07 Mar 2015 19:46:50 GMT

I've been out of practice for a while so can someone please clarify:

If I am a self employed locum do I need both VDS and PLI from somewhere such as Graybrook?

If I locum through an agency which insist on me using an umbrella company does that cover me regardless?

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Sal the 1st — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 20:19:53 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite VN,"]we are still allowed our own opinions.[/quote]

don't bank on it! it isn't opinions they want - its a willingness to toe the party line AKA a dictatorship

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Caro Laithwaite VN — Fri, 06 Mar 2015 13:55:53 GMT

Thanks Sal ..l did remember what would probably happen while away and ranted to other half then dismissed it and enjoyed my holiday.

It took 4 days to find the letter was about to throw away a note from a friend and realised he had written it on the other side of an unopened envelope.

Fair to say l won't change my views of rcvs in fact they have sunk even lower it used to be l would think of them occasionally if l overturned a rock...that is to high a praise for them now though. As far as l know this is not zimbabwe and we are still allowed our own opinions.

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Sal the 1st — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 10:22:58 GMT

[quote user="Caro Laithwaite VN,"]l have just got back from holiday to what the wonderful rcvs has done to us listed nurses. [/quote]

I didnt tell you because I didnt want to spoil your holiday

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Caro Laithwaite VN — Thu, 05 Mar 2015 10:00:58 GMT

Update to this may be of help...

l have just got back from holiday to what the wonderful rcvs has done to us listed nurses. I have arranged the VDS cover and just paid for full indemnity with Greybrook and l work as a Ltd company. Andy has a small biscuit and cake business he runs under our company with separate insurance for that from the start which is not covered only the veterinary nursing is.

I had a chat with the lady at greybrook as they have had a lot of enquires all of a sudden and were puzzled so l explained why. They are going to look into a separate scheme which they will look at forming and be a big help. In the mean time they will take you on as a ltd company.

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Sal the 1st — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 23:56:49 GMT

phew ! - thats a relief! yes I was self employed

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 23:48:42 GMT

You were self employed weren't you sal? If so then towergates probably did cover you ok. I heard a few people mention them and they were covered so maybe they've changed underwriters since then? just a thought.

Im more worried that a lot of locum people keep telling me that they're covered by vds.

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Sal the 1st — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 23:13:13 GMT

this thread has got me thinking - and I am a bit worried tbh because when I was locuming as a vn for my professional liability I thought I WAS covered by Towergate? I added it to my various therapies and they didnt have a problem with that, I spoke to them directly and as I understood it I was covered. I wasn't a limited company so I dont know if that makes a difference? will have to have a shufty through the paperwork - if I find it (have had at least 2 changes of address since then) will send you a copy as a PM. Have you tried Hiscox or AXA at all?

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 19:05:40 GMT

oops, yeah, I meant professional liability insurance...'sbeen a long day....

ta.

looks like more expense then oh my

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:40:00 GMT

Hi,

You won't need public liability as that will be the practices responsibility that your working in. Do you mean professional liability /indemnity?

If so the vds doesn't cover this under their nursing cover. The vds nursing cover only gives you support and representation.

So i would say vds cover and professional liability /indemnity imho

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 18:25:00 GMT

Hi,

I've a question... Yoo hoo to all self-employed locum's (not under umbrella company or with an agency - I'd imagine you're covered by them?)...Do you have VDS and Public Liability Insurance running together? Or just VDS or just PLI? I'd like to know what's best (both? Is this expensive & overkill or absolutely necessary just in case?).

Hi to Sal (1st) - you'll know the answer to this I am certain!! Cheers.

Ali h

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Fri, 27 Feb 2015 15:30:02 GMT

Update

Graybrook won't insure me due to the way I'm set up as Ltd (won't go into that here) but will consider self employed veterinary nurses generally.

Just in case anyone else is looking.

In the interim I'm using an umbrella company and then if I m locuming long term then I'll untangle the self employed knot.

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 17:18:36 GMT

The VDS cover is only representation and support. it doesn't cover professional indemnity so you will be liable to pay any fines, costs from your own pocket if the worst happened. The vds only covers permanent nurses fully under the practices insurance so no good for locums.

however they have stated that some practices may choose to extend the practice insurance to cover locums but this is a gray area as if you replace a member of staff you take on their portion of the insurance cover so in effect if something were to come up against both of you, unlikely I know, you again wouldnt be covered. Also if the practice itself sued you again you couldn't use their vds cover obviously.

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 17:12:23 GMT

Closed after 5pm so I'll call again tomorrow.. Thanks for the tip.

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

therainyj — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 17:01:45 GMT

Graybrook are more than 4 times more expensive per annum than the VDS... is their cover really that different?

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Lisa Brett — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 16:29:00 GMT

The BVNA usually recommend Graybrook Insurance Brokers:

www.graybrook.co.uk

Tel: 01245 321185

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Tue, 24 Feb 2015 11:16:20 GMT

Well towergates is a no.... Urgh... This is ridiculous! Obviously no one in the business.. Vds, towergates, locum agency can recommend anyone due to the financial services authority regs so i feel I'm banging my head on a brick wall!

Anyone else got any ideas other than going through an umbrella company?

Help

RE: Professional indemnity insurance

Claire Coulthard RVN — Fri, 20 Feb 2015 20:52:46 GMT

Hi sal,

Thanks for your reply.

Ive contacted towergate for a quote but unsurprisingly they can't quote an rvn online so I'll call them first thing Monday.

ClsitrClaire