Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Sal the 1st — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 19:14:47 GMT

cynical? me? - you betcha.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Surely the right thing to do would be to commission a Mori poll amongst the public and see what pet owners think![/quote]

the best suggestion I have seen yet - as the title 'Dr' is probably more important to the vets than the clients using their services. I suspect to the client it won't mean a deal unless they think by their vet calling themselves 'Dr' it is going to cost them more.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 17:06:25 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]I'm sorry but all this talk of titles going on and who can/should call themselves this or that - and this applies to both vets and nurses what is it actually achieving? Is it just an exercise in ego massaging?[/quote]

I think that's probably a tad cynical!

On the face of it, I tend to agree that it probably won't make much odds either way. But part of me wonders whether the public holds a 'Dr' in higher esteem, and whether that in turn would have a positive effect, however small, on animal welfare.

Simplistically, am I more likely to do what I am told by a Doctor than by a non-Doctor?

I don't know.

But actually, having this discussion amongst veterinary surgeons and nurses seems a bit beside the point (interesting though it is).

Surely the right thing to do would be to commission a Mori poll amongst the public and see what pet owners think!

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Louise B — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 22:43:21 GMT

[quote user="Sal the 1st"]'m sorry but all this talk of titles going on and who can/should call themselves this or that - and this applies to both vets and nurses what is it actually achieving? Is it just an exercise in ego massaging?[/quote]

Depends. A PhD is basically a vocational qualification showing that you have reached a given level of competency in research skills. I would be just as hacked off if the RCVS suddenly allowed vets to use the post-nominals RVN given that they have not trained as a vet nurse. Unfortunately, Dr is used to denote both human medics and people with a PhD which muddies the waters somewhat so I can see both sides there.

I choose not to use the title 'Dr' when working within vet practice (i.e. to clients) because it is not relevant to my job at that point. However, I do use it when working as an academic because it is then relevant. I also use it when complaining as it helps massively then but I am firmly a 'Miss' when obtaining quotes from tradesmen (one plumber quoted me 1.5k more when I used 'Dr'). However, if vets were given the title 'Dr' would they use it when working in practice (i.e. as veterinary doctors) but decline to use it (unless they also have a PhD) when working as academics within universities (i.e. as lecturers/researchers) to avoid misleading people as to their level of research training? I think this is unlikely.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Sal the 1st — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 11:23:09 GMT

I agree with POHM - use the title Dr if you have a genuine entitlement to do so ie you hold a PhD.

The title I purchased I have never used because I dont see it as being worth the paper it was written on and was bought (not with my money I will hasten to add) as an exercise to show just how easy it was for somebody to build and abuse a false persona in the therapy world.

If somebody was awarded the Dr title abroad then yes I do feel they have an entitlement to use it because then it is in addition to the RCVS post nominals but if that then becomes such a great issue to some then how about stating where it was awarded like many human GPs do? ie at the practice I am registered at we have a couple of MBBS (Pak) MRCP (UK).

I'm sorry but all this talk of titles going on and who can/should call themselves this or that - and this applies to both vets and nurses what is it actually achieving? Is it just an exercise in ego massaging?

or is it something like Marathon changing its name to Snickers, or oil of Ulay become Olay, or Jif becoming Cif - same product new name, just a rebranding exercise

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 07 Jan 2015 08:59:40 GMT

Dear Princess Ophelia Hermione Macbeth, (Doctor)...

Yes, for what worth my opinion weighs in at; I am in agreement with your feelings. You have worked for and earned the title of Dr; therefore I think you should be able to use it as your title and not feel you have to refrain for the fear of the undermining of, or causing confusion to, anyone else. Again, I stress my opinion that the talents of the individual, irrespective of educational achievement, are the most important thing; however, as stated, if you've earned the title you should feel able to use it!

So, in summary (for me); if you've got the title through education - please use it. If you haven't, don't.

Ali h

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Louise B — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 18:13:26 GMT

[quote user="Ian MacFarlaine"]Onto the main question - having now worked for various stints in more than 15 countries, the appellation of Dr for vets makes total sense to me and seems the most natural thing in the world. I think that, whatever their current attitudes, clinical abilities and their job performance, all vets have had to work bloody hard to get their first degree, and the title is deserved. The only people I can see having a reason to grumble are the DVMs and PhDs but they are usually a fairly stoical bunch by the time they end up at that stage anyway, and if not, then at least it'll take their mind off being grumpy about something else.[/quote]

I care about vets in the UK being able to call themselves "Dr". I am a vet nurse who also holds a PhD and I worked extremely hard to obtain this qualification. I don't see why vets should call themselves "Dr" because they worked hard at their undergraduate level degree. My main peeve would be vets in university positions calling themselves "Dr" when they do not hold a PhD . I would also be rather annoyed to think of vets in non-academic GP posts calling themselves "Dr" when I am already refraining from calling myself "Dr" with clients in order to not appear to undermine the vet academically or confuse the client.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 10:59:27 GMT

Speaking as a DVM, I'm not petty and have no problem with someone who has a Bachelor's in vet medicine calling himself 'Dr'. (where's the stoic smiley?)

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 23:23:21 GMT

'Obviously we are all a lot older and wiser now and would never do anything so stupid'

bit older maybe, few grey hairs possibly ( inadequately disguised by by Clairol Nice and Easy) wiser? in some respects but as to not doing anything so stupid - jury is out on that one Laughter keeps you young - and I have no plans on growing up anytime soon

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Ian M — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 22:59:55 GMT

Hi Alison, indeed in the old days the “Off duty” pages became mildly ridiculous with a small segment of the usage obsessed with writing poetry about mammoths, pygmy mammoths being the new designer pet in our prediction. It culminated in (mercifully aborted) plans by George Cooper to have a mass mammoth poetry recital gatecrashing the BSAVA Saturday night party. For a while there was a hangover that those with a lot of post counts were referred to as “mammoth posters”. There was such a clamour to become a mammoth poster that several people engaged in posting multiple single-word replies to threads to boost their post count quickly to achieve the magic number.

Obviously we are all a lot older and wiser now and would never do anything so stupid.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Alison Clare Hickman — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 21:42:56 GMT

Ah, I see. Thanks all for the explanations. I truly hadn't thought about letting laypeople et al getting their hands on any dirty laundry! In fact I wasn't asking for merging everyone together though; I was admittedly being a little bit elitist by asking for me, as a veterinary nurse - a partner professional - to have a key to 'global' entry to the vetsurgeon site; for joining in discussions or just lurking, reading and learning. Access by a VN wouldn't be soooo bad would it? Wouldn't be too difficult to police the entry requirements for just VN's? But no worries, I'm happy.

Wasn't thinking (as I said earlier) about anyone else outside the profession being interested. My positive side of the coin seemingly has a nasty negative underbelly... such is life....such are some humans it sounds like! Oh well. I'm not like that so I invite anyone to chatter to me about anything they like, so long as they're informative, good company and we both gain a positive result from the event. Plus, as some other posters have alluded to - a good laugh would be great!

Doctor Who?

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 19:48:20 GMT

[quote user="Ian MacFarlaine"]

Seriously though Big A, I am inclined to agree with you - as this site does, as well as attracting those in employment or on a course of study, attract a lot of people who aren't in the "industry" yet. I do worry about how laypeople or animal charity volunteers may perceive the stuff discussed on here and short of asking every joinee to provide enrolment or cert numbers, there isn't much we can do to prevent this (and I remember when the various members of that old MRSA forum were sneaking onto here). I would worry that merging the forums would allow these groups access to the vet forum, and while I don't think the users there would give 2 hoots about VNs being able to access it, they would rightly be concerned about laypeople.

[/quote]

and I agree with this too

[quote user="Ian MacFarlaine"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"], but there was a time on this forum where the discussions were miles and miles of (very funny) silliness.[/quote]

Imagine that. Resurrecting extinct species in miniature form,giant squid, goats with legs shorter on one side than the other because they walk up mountains in a circle, and the fire brigade being called in to fill in for striking VNs. Them were the days.

[/quote]

simpler, happier times when people were not so involved in the ins and outs of a ducks backside and point scoring - would be good to get some of that back and leave some of the humour- less misery behind. Some days theres only so much of it you can take

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Sal the 1st — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 19:25:44 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] What I DO agree with you about is the importance of greater collaboration between vets and nurses - but I think this needs to be done in some other way than just making the forums one big free for all. I think better to have a defined forum where those vets and nurses that want to can collaborate - in addition to the ones for each audience.[/quote]

and yes I look forward to that :-)

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Ian M — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 19:01:42 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"], but there was a time on this forum where the discussions were miles and miles of (very funny) silliness.[/quote]

Onto the main question - having now worked for various stints in more than 15 countries, the appellation of Dr for vets makes total sense to me and seems the most natural thing in the world. I think that, whatever their current attitudes, clinical abilities and their job performance, all vets have had to work bloody hard to get their first degree, and the title is deserved. The only people I can see having a reason to grumble are the DVMs and PhDs but they are usually a fairly stoical bunch by the time they end up at that stage anyway, and if not, then at least it'll take their mind off being grumpy about something else.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

enigmaticat-uk — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 17:05:34 GMT

My understanding of why vets are not called Doctor is because they are veterinary SURGEONS. In human medicine, surgeons are also referred to by Mr/Mrs rather than Doctor as some sort form of respect. I personally think that it would be less confusing if all Doctors/Surgeons/Vets were given the title Dr as they all have a similar role/knowledge/responsibility to patients. It would be less confusing if a different term was invented to apply to those with a PhD...... but that would never happen!

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 13:53:08 GMT

Arlo's far too polite - put simply, there are vets over there who would have an attack of apoplexy if a non-veterinary surgeon read what they had to say behind closed doors! And that's why he's kept the VS site as closed as it is. It's nothing to do with Arlo keeping secrets, it's keeping his users happy.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 05 Jan 2015 13:24:49 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]Arlo, it feels like you must've got a huge reason for doing this but for the life of me I cannot think what it is...[/quote]

Simply speaking, the two different audiences are different enough to require their own forums. Vets are a generally older than nurses, there are more male vets than nurses, and vets are more academically qualified. The discussions that the different audiences have are on a different 'level'. A lot of the vet ones are clinical, for example.

Forums ebb and flow, but there was a time on this forum where the discussions were miles and miles of (very funny) silliness. It was all great fun, but the problem is that if I closed vetnurse and made them all one site, that could drown the vetsurgeon discussions and alienate a lot of vets.

So - bottom line is that I won't be making it all one big forum for vets and nurses. What I DO agree with you about is the importance of greater collaboration between vets and nurses - but I think this needs to be done in some other way than just making the forums one big free for all. I think better to have a defined forum where those vets and nurses that want to can collaborate - in addition to the ones for each audience.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Alison Clare Hickman — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 17:54:02 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]It is two very different audiences discussing mainly different things. That's why I made the decision all those years ago to have separate sites for vets and nurses. But there is a veterinary nursing forum on vetsurgeon.org for discussions between vets and nurses. [/quote]

Arlo, it feels like you must've got a huge reason for doing this but for the life of me I cannot think what it is... From my simple point of view I think I'd like to be able to choose to join in to whatever thread is going please! I do not like the enforced restriction; especially since in my work I can enter into a conversation or learn from a discussion that perhaps is, on the face of it, not strictly 'within my remit' as a nurse but is valid to me as a veterinary professional in the wider sense. I am aware there could be topics on either side that mightn't be raised if all eyes were on it but then again isn't effective communication the key to a good working relationship? Uncertain audience topics can be continued in PM mode, surely? This currently happens.

I am lucky that I (now) work in a collaborative environment and vets/nurses work together towards the same aims. We talk to each other and share from the basic to the higher level stuff. However, if there has been something I shouldn't hear then I am adult enough to park it in a place in my head marked 'restricted zone' and leave it alone (or go somewhere private to talk about it professionally).

There have been many threads in this forum about lack of understanding between colleagues so I should think the brave (?) step of being allowed to communicate with each other as freely as possible would be a unique (?) advantage to both professions?

What exactly are you afraid (if that's the right word?) of if we allowed to mingle freely with each other? What are the dangers? Have I missed the obvious (possibly, I'm a bit of a Pollyanna - always try to be as glad as I can be!).

I have access to the Veterinary Times and the VetNurse Times.. and many other publications aimed primarily at vets. Vets have access to nursing journals etc (if they so desired!). It raises the point, I think, that if we are such different beasts then why aren't these restricted to 'eyes only' too? BSAVA welcomes nurses too... I could mention more. Even the rusty old RCVS has realised it needs to shake off the years of oxidisation accrued after years in a dusty ivory tower and allow their cogs to show in a bid to work better ..(whether this is being a success or not is a whole new discussion; but at least they are trying, natch!)

Maybe I live in a weird world but I think sharing, caring, supporting and understanding more about each other's viewpoints is highly useful. It would be good to discuss "mainly different things" as well as the similars. Isn't this useful and mind expanding? I want vets and nurses to be a cohesive team - sticking together. Am I missing the point? Please explain! Thanks.

Ali h

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 09:39:45 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]On vetsurgeon - what are the vets saying about it?[/quote]

It hasn't been a charged discussion by any means! I'd say split 50:50 between those who seem to be in favour vs those who are against, with neither side having especially strong arguments either way (the pros seem to like the idea for the recognition, whilst the antis argue that it won't make any odds to the public).

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]sometimes being barred from being able to join in conversation with our fellow professionals on vetsurgeon just niggles me[/quote]

It is two very different audiences discussing mainly different things. That's why I made the decision all those years ago to have separate sites for vets and nurses. But there is a veterinary nursing forum on vetsurgeon.org for discussions between vets and nurses.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Alison Clare Hickman — Wed, 31 Dec 2014 18:02:06 GMT

Hey Arlo,

On vetsurgeon - what are the vets saying about it?! I'd love to know... sometimes being barred from being able to join in conversation with our fellow professionals on vetsurgeon just niggles me... aren't we all supposed to be communicating with each other? Sigh...

Ali h

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Mafy ccr — Wed, 31 Dec 2014 10:18:35 GMT

Thats the point Mark :D

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 31 Dec 2014 09:40:48 GMT

[quote user="Alison Clare Hickman"]As Mark has reported, he would like to reinvigorate the element of respect. [/quote]

My apologies, but that's not what I said; I just said that 'Mr' outside the UK doesn't mean what it means inside the UK. I like being called Dr, don't get me wrong, but if I'm a bad vet, then no title will help retrieve MY name from the mud!

If I am not respected, that's because I'm not doing something right - calling me Dr, or even 'Lustrous Potentate of the Grand Mystic Royal Order of the Nobles of the Ali Baba Temple of the Shrine' won't fix that!

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Sal the 1st — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 23:56:12 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]But a part of me thinks the title does confer a little, I dunno, extra respect. And perhaps that is no bad thing at a time when that is an increasingly rare commodity.[/quote]

but does it? I bought a 'Dr' title from the states for 600 quid some years ago after completing a correspondence course. Did it make me a fantastic therapist ? that would be a no - but the training I completed in therapy that didnt have the fancy title that was worth every penny both to myself and my clients. The Dr title is relatively easy to purchase. As to extra respect - Harold Shipman also held the title Dr as did Crippen.

I am really not getting this? I thought the masterplan with the RCVS was to simplify things for Joe Public not confuse them even more.

lets illustrate this

I used to work with a vet that qualified in Canada who called themselves 'Dr' and another that trained in New Zealand who also called themselves Dr

this is what happened with the NZ vet - guy comes into the waiting room and asks to see the doc (it very clearly says outside we are a vet practice but it also says on the shingle near the door that our vet is a Dr ). Guy has the biggest boil on his neck I have ever seen and is insistent he wants our doc to take a look and give him some antibiotics - he just didnt get it that our doc didn't do humans because as far as he was concerned all docs did humans. We did eventually manage to steer him in the direction of the NHS

Later that day he came back into the waiting room with a dressing over the boil - we were ready for another session of 'you need to be across at the Park road surgery, this is Boston rd surgery and this is the vets' when he came out with the following

'I bet you thought I was a right prat earlier thinking you were the doctors surgery?'

No not at all sir it happens all the time

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Mafy ccr — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 16:26:35 GMT

To be honest in my country (Portugal) and in fair part of Europe the Vets are called doctors. In my opinion if someone have a doctorate degree is fair to call a vet Doc. But if the vet don't have this degree is not a Doctor. Anyway the important is keep the good work I think is not important.

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Alison Clare Hickman — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 12:04:16 GMT

Just some more random thoughts...

If it is granted that vets can call themselves 'Doctor' how will the new message be made public? Methinks it woul involve some of the following... a change in headed notepaper and business cards and prefixed to their signature; Oh, and on their bank accounts, charge cards and passports; a new title on the brass placque on the front door... A different box to tick on the Census (if they do one again)... Reminding the odd owner who forgets to say "Thank you Doctor" after their pet's annual vaccination... OOh, sarcasm, sorry. That's not nice Ali.

Am I missing the point perhaps?

As Mark has reported, he would like to reinvigorate the element of respect. I definitely am in accord with the sentiment! Do Doctors elicit more respect than Vets? I think Vets are generally more highly regarded and viewed with a heck of a lot more affection that your average human medicine man (or woman), but that's just me. Anyone like to comment?!

Also, if I remember correctly, it's been mooted so as to align the UK with the rest of the veterinary world? Am I wrong though in thinking you COULD simply call yourself Doctor when abroad? Isn't it just in common use amongst the veterinary profession as a courtesy title?. So, when in Rome and all that? If this is so why quibble about it in the UK if we historically don't use it, it's a courtesy title anyway and doesn't change the abilities of the person doing the job? Does NOT having the courtesy title make vets feel inferior when travelling abroad/communicating with their worldwide peers? Vets? Any comments? I can only compare it to how I feel when I meet a foreign veterinary nurse abroad and he/she is impressed with the fact I trained in the UK and am an 'RVN' - it makes me feel proud and very happy - but it doesn't affect + or - my abilities as an RVN. Is it therefore, the whole argument, about how the individual is regarded and how that regard makes them feel about themselves? Bit shallow that, I think! But that's just my opinion!

So, am still thinking it doesn't matter too much of a hoot once a person's individual abilities and education is proven. Additionally DVM - Doctor of Veterinary Medicine - and other Doctorate acronyms are suffix titles that are common place already.

Yup, I remain in Sal's camp - "don't care"!

Ali h

RE: Do you think vets should be called 'Dr'?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 30 Dec 2014 11:20:31 GMT

[quote user="PSA-David"]To be blatantly fair also Doctorate roles and other “degrees” are too randomized these days, such asyou can have a “degree” in David Beckham.[/quote]

Laughed out loud.

Must say, I'm in two minds. I mean, as a pet owner I'm always going to think of a vet as a vet, not a doctor.

But a part of me thinks the title does confer a little, I dunno, extra respect. And perhaps that is no bad thing at a time when that is an increasingly rare commodity.