Can I?

Re: Can I?

Emma Dillon — Mon, 25 May 2009 21:44:39 GMT

Thanks guys, I guess there is no definitive list then.

Its just with the 2010 disciplinary thing coming in I want to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong, but its impossible. I guess you just have to take your chance.

Its not a very fair system though, if you aren't 100% sure and colleagues or the vet says its fine but its not you could still end up in front of the RCVS as you're responsible for your own actions, but with the guidelines being so grey how the hell are you meant to know?

Well good luck everyone for 2010!

Re: Can I?

loobylou — Sat, 23 May 2009 17:13:10 GMT

[quote user="louise chappell"]

You are not allowed to induce anaesthesia using propofol. Only a vet it permitted to do this. Be aware that from 2010 you can be personally disciplined if you are an RVN if you work outside legislation.

Now I am confused, I thought as RVNS we were allowed to administer ga as long as the vet told you which drug, and how much. As well as being in the room x

The whole thing scares me no wonder people are so confused!!

[/quote]

You would be allowed to administer an anaesthetic if it was triple combination with the quantites worked out by the vet. You are not allowed to administer anaesthetic to effect which is why inducing with propofol is a big no-no!

Re: Can I?

Carol Cottrell — Sat, 23 May 2009 15:43:29 GMT

The whole concept is still obviously open to interpretation as the advice notes on the rcvs website state :

3) Therefore, the advice on the monitoring and maintenance of anaesthesia remained as follows;

a) Inducing anaesthesia by administration of specific quantity of medicine directed by a veterinary surgeon may be carried out by a veterinary nurse o

r with supervision, a student veterinary nurse, but not any other person.

Re: Can I?

louiseRVN — Sat, 23 May 2009 13:40:53 GMT

Now I am confused, I thought as RVNS we were allowed to administer ga as long as the vet told you which drug, and how much. As well as being in the room x

The whole thing scares me no wonder people are so confused!!

Re: Can I?

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Fri, 22 May 2009 20:28:14 GMT

Hi Toad, sorry for confusing you, When I see dispense I automatically think prescribe.. as in a nurse looking at a wound and deciding it needs soome abios, and basically dispensing them herself.....without seeking affirmation from a vet.

AS far as I know in dispensing, we were allowed, then not for a while, but I think we are allowed to do so again after an uproar from the VN community.

Re: Can I?

Jenny T — Thu, 21 May 2009 22:30:54 GMT

Hi carol,

As a member of VN council I have tried a number of times to obtain some clarification re what a VN can and cannot legally do. There are some clear rules (eg no cat castrates, no dental extractions unless just using fingers etc). However, the rules come originally from the veterinary surgeons Act, and are not exactly specified there either. At the end of the day a court would make the final ruling on if a VN had acted outside of the law.

The RCVS does offer some guidance but does not write up a list of do's and don't's as it is felt that this could then be restrictive (so a vet could say that because something was not on the list you could not do it). Furthermore, a nurse's individual training and experience also has a bearing on what she/he is deemed able to do by the overseeing vet.

Re: Can I?

Carol Cottrell — Thu, 21 May 2009 22:10:43 GMT

- When the transaction is authorised by the veterinary surgeon he/she

must be satisfied (whether via SQP or otherwise) that any other person

handing over the medicines he/she has prescribed to the end client is

competent to do so. This person can be any other staff member that the

vet has instructed to hand over the medicines on his /her behalf.

This is a small extract from vmd.gov.uk. It's worrying that things are interpreted so differently but goes to show how unclear it all is! At our practice only the vet & the RVNs dispense but generally run it by the vet first if not sure!

We also induce anaesthesia with Propofol at the recommended induction dose / rate & intubate, however, we are lucky to be a small clinic & the vet is only a stone's throw away at any time.

Oh! & Huge congratulations by the way

Re: Can I?

Emma Dillon — Thu, 21 May 2009 21:25:51 GMT

ok so one of you says you can dispense as long as the vet prescribed and one of you says you can't? Getting more confused by the minute? I have my guide to professional conduct, but its all a bit general, no specifics. OK I had no idea being a RVN could be this complicated!

Thanks by the way, am over the frigging moon at qualifying! :)

Re: Can I?

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 21 May 2009 21:19:22 GMT

Just read maisy's.... and i forgot about the loose teeth

Re: Can I?

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 21 May 2009 21:17:50 GMT

Hi toad this is a quick reply.... you cant dispense, you can do scale and polish,but no extractions, you can do 2nd vacc, as long as the pup/kitten has had 1st vacc with vet and there are no underlying problems, you cannot sign a certificate but a card(vaccination), you cannot give propoflo, as this is seen as dispensing as it is given in increments.

Phew...hope this helps

Re: Can I?

Maisy — Thu, 21 May 2009 21:15:53 GMT

Hi Toad

Congratulations on your RVN!

You should have received your code of practice which has some info about what L/RVN's can and can't do, a lot of things will be down to the individual practice though.

Dispensing - if the vet has authorised the prescription and you are deemed suitable (hopefully QVNs are!) then yes. Though technically for the VPS meds, you still cannot go a dispense without the vet/SQP authorising this first. Countersigning would be a yes too, we do this though I think this ruling tends to be an individual practice policy rather than something legal.

2nd vaccs - VNs can administer the vacc providing the vet has done the first vacc and health checked the animal. VNs can sign vaccine cards but not certificates and I believe the RCVS recommend a vet being in the same room (which really defeats the point..) We can do second vaccs if the vet is running behind mainly, but not routinely. VNs in our group don't sign any cards but will p.p our name.

Scale and polish - yes, and I believe extractions if the tooth is so loose it can be removed with your fingers.

Anaesthetics - can't be administered by a VN for effect. The vet would need to tell you to give the animal x amount of mls for this to be allowed. From what you're saying, that situation you describe would fall out of sch3 as you would be choosing the amount of Propofol to be induced.

Hope this helps a bit