Growly Dog!

Re: Growly Dog!

Rapunzel — Sun, 31 May 2009 13:31:58 GMT

I visited my friend and dog last week. When he started growling I told my friend I didn't think this was 'healthy' behaviour and I was going to have to ignore him. She was quite happy with this and told the dog to lie down. He went and laid on his bed and didn't bother me for the rest of my visit.

Thanks so much for all the good and interesting advice. I think there was a strong possibility that he could have gone for me , so I'm glad you'd told me how best to handle it.

Re: Growly Dog!

LizCape — Sun, 31 May 2009 10:27:10 GMT

Hahaha … no, it’s not Saffa English. It’s just plain BAD English. I know quite a few people who say ‘domestification’ and it possibly has it’s origin in Afrikaans indeed (spelled with a “k” Steph …. ), which I don’t speak very well btw. Somehow I very easily pick up misspelled words and never get rid of them again. You know, it is all my husband’s fault. My in-laws speak Afrikaans ….

Re: Growly Dog!

Anonymous — Sun, 24 May 2009 00:40:02 GMT

I have to ask Liz, is domestified/domestify a Saffa word? Surely you mean Domesticate or Domesticated? Just seems strange with you using fairly logical scientific jargon but then use a word like that. Just leads me to assume that you believe this is a word. I'm very unfamilar with it so assuming it maybe is africaans or something? Please don't take this offensively just confused.

Re: Growly Dog!

Jenny T — Sun, 24 May 2009 00:37:23 GMT

Discipline vs "dominance". Yes, I think many people confuse the terms and think that if you don't agree with "dominance theory" you advocate a lack of discipline.

I think it is important to realise that dogs are just dogs and complex concepts are beyond them. So, for example, a dog pulling on a lead is not doing so because it wants to be a pack leader and be in front of you leading the pack, it pulls because it is excited to be going on a walk. It may also not have be trained to walk nicely to heel.

I always find it interesting to note that we don't try to apply pack theory to other animals. You don't hear people saying that their horse is misbehaving because it wants to lead the herd, or their cat wants to lead the pride. It would just sound too ridiculous. Shame many people insist on trying to do this with dogs.

Re: Growly Dog!

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sat, 23 May 2009 23:18:04 GMT

Hi Jenny,

Bullying behaviour......... now there is something I have never considered, yes you see it amongst dogs but I have never considered a dog bullying a person.

I agree also re the spoiled like babies bit Do you think that is where a lot of people get confused,. I treat mine like a child Ie the consistency, rules boundaries etc, but have never spoiled a dog....... I have seen many a spoiled pooch and its not pretty.

I need to do some behaviour courses once I have done the Dip, Jenny you make it sound so sensible

Re: Growly Dog!

Jenny T — Sat, 23 May 2009 23:00:08 GMT

STRVN

Re the dog putting his paws on people when growling. You asked for an explanation. I would always advise people to look for an explanation without reference to "dominance theory". So in this case you could consider-

Lack of training- pups show this behaviour towards people. Maybe the dog has never been taught otherwise.
Curiosity.
Over-excitement.
Inappropriate play.
Bullying behaviour.
Aggression.

You would need to see the behaviour and take a number of other factors into account to decide why the dog does this.

To clarify a point- Just because i say that you should not try and "dominate" a dog (whatever that may mean), does not mean I think dogs should be spoiled and treated like babies. Dogs require rules, boundaries and consistency. It drives me mad at work to see people being dragged around and ignored by their dogs, when just a little training and discipline could turn these monsters into angels.

Mrs Dot Dot

Sounds to me like you are doing a great job. From what you have said I would happily send a client to your puppy class.

Re: Growly Dog!

Cat Woman — Sat, 23 May 2009 19:13:25 GMT

[quote user="Mrs Dot Dot"] How do you know that you are giving the right advice??? [/quote]

I'm not sure that you ever will know! There will always be someone that has a different opinion & always someone that thinks their way is the only way. You can only do your best & sometimes gut instinct is about as good as anything!!

Re: Growly Dog!

Mrs Dot Dot — Sat, 23 May 2009 19:08:45 GMT

I am reading this with great interest..... I know there are so many different opinions on behaviour that everyone has their own ideas/ gives different advice etc and often it's the clients who end up very confused..... depending on which ' behiourist' they speak to.

I run our puppy parties and have done for almost 4 years now.... I have grown to love doing them..... I am now genuinely interested in puppy /adolescent behaviour but I am at heart, a cat person, so after nursing for some years this interest has come as abit of a shock to me.

I have done whatever CPD is available, and whatever courses I can and we also have a great lady who runs local training classes and I have watched / taken advice from her alot... I like the way she does things.... I also have my nurse experience which although isn't 'behaviour', I realise that you pick up alot of things without realising it.

I don't like the 'dominance' word that is branded round alot by all sorts of people, but this is a gut feeling rather than me having gained knowledge of this... I know that there are books etc available but I struggle to read them.

What I am getting round to saying is, I worry alot about giving wrong advice as I know what damage it can do, so I tend to go by my gut feeling, refer to our training lady if needed and don't give any advice if I'm not sure, rather than some wrong advice..

I think I am doing OK, and we seem to have alot of happy, well-socialised puppies/ young adults coming to the practice now... but how do you know that you are giving the right advice?

I do say to clients that puppies should be treated in similar ways to children eg they like their routine, they like to know where they stand/ the boundaries etc, reward good behaiour and ignore the bad, put them to bed when they get over tired, but I say don't baby them which is different eg don't over reassure them, give them confisdence etc

Any this waffle is just trying to ask(again!) How do you know that you are giving the right advice???

Re: Growly Dog!

dinkyd — Sat, 23 May 2009 12:18:59 GMT

Agree - very interesting thread!

Re: Growly Dog!

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Sat, 23 May 2009 11:54:39 GMT

Can I just say I am finding this all very interesting,and I am glad no one is tossing their toys out of the pram on this

Can I ask a question.... it's on Dominance theory, now I agree with Jenny T that to dominate a dog all the time from day one etc is not a good thing, my own dogs I have rules and boundaries like I do with my children, thats not to say I treat my dogs like a child, the only thing that is the same is the boundaries, there are things they are not allowed to do and things they are.

Anyway back to my question, what about dogs doing the dominating? because some do and that is where I am in agreement with Liz, it's not always a case of us dominating them, some dogs do try to dominate, I however dont agree that trying to dominate them back is the solution, because as Jenny T said that is where you are likely to get bitten.

When Rapunzel above mentioned that the dog put his feet on her to have his chest tickled but was growling, I personally saw this as a dog trying to dominate her? Am I right in thinking that this is the case?

Re: Growly Dog!

LizCape — Sat, 23 May 2009 10:29:00 GMT

Of course not. Our dogs are not wolves in the behavioral sense of the word. You better be glad they aren’t. And most(!) dogs shouldn’t be treated like that. But genetically they are, albeit with a genetic expression profile completely different from wolves. Taxonomically our dogs are the genus/species Canis lupus (wolf) and not, what a lot of dog owners think, Canis familiaris, which is not a species of its own and can only be kept in a meta-stable phase by intense and controlled breeding programs. Left alone they may become feral and form a sub-species (still scientific dispute about this), like the dingo.

You are right. The genome doesn’t solely determine what you are. It’s gene expression that counts most. Otherwise we would all look like chimps, indeed. Or would chimps look like humans …..? To be honest, sometimes I wonder ….. But, we’re talking different species here!

Back to the dogs, point is that some dogs simply still (or again?) show wolf-like behaviour. This can not be mistaken, I have witnessed this often enough. Your dog probably feels very comfortable on top of the stairs. Nothing to worry about as long as he doesn’t object to be sent away by you. But I have seen dogs claiming a high position, not allowing anyone above them. They would fight for their position. Not acceptable for a house dog, of course. But you definitely don’t correct this in a parent-child way.

I am a dog person. I really love dogs, especially dogs with some wolf-like expressions. Hm, I told you I have a poodle, didn’t I …..? But I am horrified by how a lot of people treat their dogs like a little baby. I am sorry if I offend anyone by saying this. A lot of dog professionals simply reject the genetic roots of their pets and teach you to raise your dog like a child. Yes, I read Eaton’s book and it greatly supports his own view. But there are a lot of less-supportive publications he didn’t include. I did read a lot of literature about dog behaviour and biology and volunteered in a wolf research center in Montana. But that doesn’t make me an expert, of course.

Lastly, of course a wolf would kill your dog right away. So would a coyote, by the way. I don’t see the point. And yes, it is very hard to domestify a wolf, if not impossible. Unfortunately there are still people who are so stupid to kill a mother wolf and rob away the babies with the idea to raise them as a pet. That doesn’t work. It’s even so that a wolf is not able to interpret the words we are saying, like our dogs can. There has been a publication about this last year or so. A wolf cannot interpret a word like “stop” or “down”. It probably took thousands of years to develop.

Whew, enough now You probably don’t agree with me, Jenny. That’s your right and no hard feelings from my side. I wish you girls a lovely weekend.

Re: Growly Dog!

Jenny T — Fri, 22 May 2009 21:29:38 GMT

Just a few points I should raise-

Dogs are absolutely not wolves. put a dog anywhere near a wolf and you will end up with a dead dog.

Dogs do not show pack behaviour. Feral dogs do not form true packs, they may group up with others, but it's every dog for itself. There is not a pack structure, pack social behaviour, pack breeding behaviour etc. Dogs do though often show a hierarchy system between themselves and the dogs they are in close contact with. This is frequently not fixed but can depend eg on the value of a resource to the individuals involved.

You can't truly domesticate a wolf. I've spoken with wolf experts who have tried by raising young pups in homes as if they were dogs. Once mature they are wild and dangerous.

Humans and dogs show a relationship which is more akin to parent-child. They respond well to discipline and clear rules and boundaries (as do children). This is not the same as "dominating" them. Plenty of parents also have unruly children. We don't say they need to be "dominated".

Dominance theory in dogs has no scientific basis. It started with work done on captive wild wolves (whose behaviour was unnatural and misinterpreted anyway). This was then just extrapolated onto dogs. Furthermore, many people assume a knowledge of wolves they do not have.

Regarding genetics- I believe humans share over 95% of their genes with chimps. This does not mean we share behaviour or act in a similar manner.

Quote- "I observe, I read, but I am definitely not an animal behaviour expert."

Maybe it would be an idea if you read-up on the subject, there are a number of excellent books, courses and research papers available. Can I suggest you start with Barry Eaton's book "Dominance, fact or fiction". COAPE also do a number of courses, including ones on wolf behaviour as well as dog behaviour.

Unfortunately poor behavioural advice to clients has been detrimental to many dogs (and if you run behaviour consultations you will frequently see this).

Re: Growly Dog!

LizCape — Fri, 22 May 2009 08:27:08 GMT

"They're wolves after all ..." was meant more or less jokingly, Jenny. But there is a core of truth in it too, because our house dogs are basically domestified wolves. (It's a bit more complicated, I agree). You wouldn't tell if you look at a poodel or a boxer. Ages and ages of breeding created such a genetic diversion that we almost created a new species. Aren't we generally referring to dogs as the species canis familiaris? Sounds great, but it's not a real species in the evolutionary or taxonomic sense of the word. Stop breeding and all those nice races will disappear. The gene pool has been shoken up so much that it's unlikely that they will ever revert to wolves again (the wolf hybrids may, perhaps), but eventually a genetic stabilization can occur indeed.

Genes are very persistent. Through intense and controlled breeding programs you can switch off some of them and switch on others. That's how it works on a molecular scale. But point is, that the original wolf genes are still there and some dogs really still have very recognizable wolf-like behaviour. They will always try to rank up and should always be reminded of their lowest position in the "pack". Treat those dog as babies and I guarantee you will end up in trouble. This "dominance theory" has a very profound basis, indeed.

Granted though that there's so much diversity that you cannot treat every dog as if he is a member of a pack. Perhaps even most dogs. My poodle would become a complete nervous wreck if I did so. Point is that you need to recognize the dogs that show pack behaviour and than treat them accordingly. You see, that's the language they understand. And they will reward you for it.

o, one last remark. Not showing that you are "higher ranking" than those dogs places the dog in control. You have to live by the dog's rules. Unfortunately I've seen that way too often. "Pretty likely to get yourself bitten" one day.

I observe, I read, but I am definitely not an animal behaviour expert. It is just my two pennies. Maybe we just have to agree to disagree, jenny

Re: Growly Dog!

Jo RVN — Thu, 21 May 2009 22:22:44 GMT

[quote user="STRVN"]Now I know a lot of Rot owners who say they have talkers, but I have to say those in question were definitely giving off a growl and a definite warning, and unfortunately the owners would either be oblivious to this, or would just say "oh they are talking".Now to my mind that is not talking it's a definite warning, and it really annoys me that Rot owners in particular try to cover up for their dogs behaviour issues by saying they are "Talkers".[/quote]

We had one last week! The owners where telling me 'oh she's only talking'. Only talking indeed hurling abuse at us more like!!

I have a golden retriever who 'talks' mad as a hatter and will do it when he wants something - i.e get on the sofa! And I know a dog who 'Smiles' its a behaviour that he got from his mum. He does it when he is pleased to see you!

Re: Growly Dog!

Jenny T — Thu, 21 May 2009 22:00:27 GMT

Hi,

Be very wary of a dog growling at you. There are plenty of dogs that wag their tails as they bite you! So don't be fooled into relaxing your guard just because you see this. Growling is a warning so take note. I agree with the comments made to remove the dog from the room if you are there and he shows this behaviour. Always better to play safe than sorry.

Please, please lets drop the "dominance theory" stuff. It has no scientific basis. Dogs are not wolves (neither are they foxes, coyotes, jackals etc- they are dogs). I would suggest that if you try and "dominant" this dog and show it you are "higher ranking" you are pretty likely to get yourself bitten.

Re: Growly Dog!

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Thu, 21 May 2009 21:12:42 GMT

Hi Rapunzel, I can sympathise with that, after all you dont want to offend a friend.

What does your friend think about his reactions to you?

Re: Growly Dog!

Rapunzel — Thu, 21 May 2009 10:25:18 GMT

Hi Guys,

Thanks for your thoughts. I can see that you are right in suggesting the dog gets put out of the room when he gets growly. I now have the age old problem of not offending the owner by suggesting her dog is less than perfect!!!!

Re: Growly Dog!

LizCape — Thu, 21 May 2009 09:06:20 GMT

yes, i agree with STRNV. But also, he should know that his behaviour is out of line. So as soon as he does it, put him out of the room right away, no patting, no friendly words, very resolute. Every time again, and again, and again. If you want to correct this kind of behaviour you got to be very consequent.

Some dogs constantly need to be reminded that they are the lowest rank in the pack. They're wolves after all ........

Re: Growly Dog!

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 20 May 2009 10:06:30 GMT

Hi Rapunzel, I think if I were your friend, I would be putting him out of the room when he does this.I would not let him climb on you either.

Even though he is wagging his tail to, does not mean he is doing so in a friendly manner.

Jenny T on here is great for behaviour advice, maybe pop up a thread for her and see what she thinks.

Re: Growly Dog!

Rapunzel — Wed, 20 May 2009 09:53:15 GMT

I think LizCape is spot on with her deduction that he is having an inner conflict. He does seem a dominant dog and he is definitley more 'growly' when I am close to my friend. So, next question - how should I react when he does it?

Re: Growly Dog!

LizCape — Wed, 20 May 2009 08:14:15 GMT

Watched the movie and that's definitely something like talking. But I don't think that's what rapunzel was talking about. You know right away if a dog shows aggressive behaviour. That message is clear and cannot be mistaken. It's not only showing teeth, you can feel it, you can see it in his eyes.

Re: Growly Dog!

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 20 May 2009 07:13:32 GMT

I have hunted youtube, and although there are a lot on ther claiming to have talking rotties, this is the closest, as most are either just howling or barking and in some cases growling.

This dog. certainly at the start is definitely talking,I have not watched all the way through, but at the start there is not a growl in sight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nk_HWgD1eU

Re: Growly Dog!

Sandra Taylor RVN, MBVNA — Wed, 20 May 2009 06:55:30 GMT

What do people on here think Talking is?? the reason I ask is, I have Rottweilers and s you all know some have a penchant for talking.

I personally have only had one true talker, and this one never growled or bared her teeth.

The talking was more of a half whiney noise with different pitch sounds, she would do it if you were eating something, and she wanted a piece of it, or if you were playing with her and her toys.... she was almost telling a story with her voice.

Now I know a lot of Rot owners who say they have talkers, but I have to say those in question were definitely giving off a growl and a definite warning, and unfortunately the owners would either be oblivious to this, or would just say "oh they are talking".Now to my mind that is not talking it's a definite warning, and it really annoys me that Rot owners in particular try to cover up for their dogs behaviour issues by saying they are "Talkers".

Rapunzel, there is a definite line in my mind between Talking and showing aggression, and what you have described and although I cannot see it, but to me it sounds like aggression, not talking.

Re: Growly Dog!

LizCape — Tue, 19 May 2009 13:16:39 GMT

Had a dog like that. He was a sweety, but wagged and showed his teeth at the same time. Some dogs just do that; can even be a matter of genetics. My dog's father did it too.

Having said that, a dog doesn't make jokes like we do. Showing his teeth is a very basic response and he doesn't do that just to entertain us. If a dog is affective and showing agression (teeth) at the same time, it may point to an inner conflict. Yes, pets can have that too. Maybe it's a dominant dog not accepting you as the boss' friend, but at the same time knowing that his place is in the lower ranks. Anyway, I would never reward him if he is showing his teeth.